And we’re not talking about black men. David Amsden’s lengthy, interesting piece in New York Magazine, “Married Man Seeks Same for Discreet Play” discusses the open closet, where men with families are pursuing same-sex desires with abandon because the Internet has made it easier to be on the down low. These men want a detection-proof double life that allows them to maintain public heterosexual privilege while they get their rocks off.
Subject line: “MM looking for other MM for side romance.” Text: Are you tired of playing games? I am. I’m looking for other married men who have always wanted to be with another man. Looking for someone in the same situation that can keep their home life at home but still have a separate life with me.Mind you, these are not self-loathing closet cases or fundies; we’re talking about men who really want to have their cake and eat it too. Amsden on one man he met:
No, he was not raised in a religious or bigoted household. No, he does not think being attracted to men is “wrong.” No, it’s not that simple. This much he will allow: “This is not the life I was meant to live. I don’t know what that life is, what it looks like, but I know it’s not this. But I don’t think most people are living the life they think they were meant to live, so I don’t feel that bad.”More after the jump.…I found about 1,000 married, closeted New Yorkers online — certainly a fraction of the true population since most men in the closet don’t identify themselves as such, even online.) Say you want to meet someone between the ages of 35 and 50, preferably dark-haired, for half an hour in midtown, between the hours of one and two in the afternoon– a few clicks of the mouse and you’ll have numerous options. Or, as William puts it to me in an instant message: “Without Craigslist I would probably just be a normal married guy who occasionally flirted on the subway. LOL.”
What’s disturbing about the subject of this article, William, is the absolute disrespect that he has for his wife. He seems to have zero guilt about pursuing these same-sex liaisons while leaving her in the dark, rationalizing that because he practices safer sex he’s in the clear. Being honest about the situation with her would blow his world apart, he says, citing what happened to former NJ gov Jim McGreevey. Amsden IMs with him:
Me: How well do you think your wife knows you? Is she the person you’re closest with?This is the closet that to me is the most frightening. While William isn’t judgmental about a person being gay or bi, it’s clear that his desire for all the social trappings and approval afforded to him via his relationship to his wife is something he must cling to. He is still part of the problem. It’s clear he enjoys the danger of avoiding detection, regardless of the risk he places on his marital relationship.
Him: She knows everything but this.
Me: Would you consider your keeping this a secret– from her and everyone– a selfish act?
Him: No. It doesn’t make their lives better to know. I know you don’t understand this but I don’t think the truth, in this instance, is really going to make anyone feel better. Honesty is not always such a great thing. Look at the McGreeveys.
Me: What does that mean?
Him: She’s not happy to know the truth.
Me: But the reason all of it happened in the first place is that he lied and was forced to come out.
Him: You are not going to convince me that the truth always sets you free.
Me: Is there less guilt now than there used to be?As long as he can keep his gay life clandestine, William’s tacitly saying same-sex relationships needs to remain underground and that our relationships should not be treated equally in open society. He reinforces the idea that same-sex attraction is all about the sex, making quickie dates and rendezvous. He has more than enough internalized homophobia still stored inside his confused mind.
Him: Not really, always the same. I rationalize a lot, I guess.
Me: What’s the rationalization?
Him: If I didn’t do this from time to time I would most likely go crazy. It’s like a release.
Me: Do you ever worry about your wife detecting something? That you smell different, for instance?
Him: Of course. I check for smells. I stay away from guys that use a lot of cologne.
Me: And what do you mean when you say you do things to make up for it?
Him: Extra time here and there. Surprise gifts.
Me: Have you ever thought it would be easier–in the long run–if you just allowed it to fall apart, and could then reconstruct things in a way that involved less secrecy and guilt?
Him: Sure, someday.
During an early conversation, for instance, he mentioned going on a group vacation years ago, before he was married, and meeting a gay couple who ran a restaurant in the Berkshires. He found himself envying their life. “I remember when the group checked into the hotel, they made a point of asking for a single bed,” William explained. “I liked how confident they were, that they had this whole life, but that they weren’t really flamboyant about it. They didn’t feel the need to advertise it.” This “need to advertise it”– the stereotype of the out-and-proud gay man– seems to grate on William. Another time, he tells me that while he hopes some day to “live a gay life,” he will never “come out.” Meaning what exactly? “I won’t be marching in any parades,” he responds.Read the rest of the article — what are your thoughts about these situations?
One commenter at my pad was steaming at hit the nail on the head:
This article underscores several facts: First, that masquerading as heterosexual, not marrying a same-gender partner, is what demeans traditional marriage. Second, that masquerading as heterosexual demeans Gay identity and distorts society’s perception of it. Third, that masquerading as heterosexual is an ultimately selfish act that can conceal contempt and hostility toward heterosexual spouses. Fourth, that masquerading as heterosexual reinforces heterosexism as a societal norm. Fifth, that Gay activists are crazy if they see someone’s “right” to be closeted as compatible with equality goals. The closet symbolizes deception, shame and fear, and none of those words are synonymous with pride.Here’s another fact: There is no such thing as a Straight man who repeatedly risks his reputation, marriage and family cohesion for unpaid sexual encounters with other men! I don’t care what takes place during those encounters. Such a man is either Gay or bisexual, but most likely Gay. Straight men in the habit of having sex with men only do so for pay, or in situations like prison where they have no access to women for a long time. In both cases, they have to mentally disengage from the act somehow, much in the same way Gay men do when they have sex with women.
37 Responses to “NY Magazine: married men on the down low”
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Cheating scum. No biscuits for you!
McGreevey’s downfall happened not because he was gay, but because he installed his lover in a sensitive security position for which he was not qualified. His “I am a gay American” speech, however, made it seem like he was being brave for facing up to being outed, when in actuality he was playing that angle as a way to cover up for the corruption. Plus, he got caught; what else could he do but admit he was gay?
Indeed, some guys in my office, who were fairly homophobic, were saying he shouldn’t resign because he’s gay. That was all they could think about, after that cynical move — not that McGreevey seriously fucked up in his job.
You’re right, that these guys are part of the problem.
Interesting that these guys are married and looking for other married gay guys. But not terribly surprising — when a friend of mine was separated but not yet divorced and looking to have a little furtive sex without affecting her ability to get custody later on, she sought out married men — and, specifically, married Marines (she lived on a Marine base). She figured that married guys would be less likely to get any ideas about getting attached, and married Marines in particular, since adultery can get you court-martialed.
A cheating, lying asshole is a cheating, lying asshole, no matter what kind of sex he’s sneaking. The door would hit mine in the ass, no matter if the “other person” was male, female, or even just via Internet. “Gonzo guppy flush him out” time.
Me and my gf are both bi and in a non-traditional relationship. We find that a good way to filter out about 99% of men who are interested in an encounter with either of us (or both) is to tell them that if they’re involved with someone that they need to tell them first about the encounter and see that they’re okay with it.
As of now, none of the prospective candidates ever tried to get to step 2 of the interview… Which is a bit disheartening.
Ah geez. Its so sad and its hard to know where to start. Clinging to societal norms?
Part of me just wants to believe that people like to have secrets. I also believe that most people aren’t actually ever really monogamous or truly “straight”. And because our society places pressure on people to be or appear faithful and hetero normative there is rarely a way for couples to be honest with each other about what they want. Plus, even if you are honest with your partner and they accept it in theory, accepting it in practice is hard.
Ultimately I can’t feel all that sorry for the men featured in the article. They know what they are doing and are clearly making a choice to lie to their spouses, never considering that the wives might also have some alternative sexual needs.
And it’s not just men. Just take a look at the Women for Women personal ads on Craig’s List. Lots of married/attached women (some of them call themselves ‘bi-curious’) are seeking women to hook up with.
“masquerading as heterosexual demeans Gay identity and distorts society’s perception of it…”
Has anyone heard of bisexuality? I never understood the assumption that married people who appear heterosexual but engage in extra-marital affairs with same-sex partners are automatically Gay. I agree that a bisexual might be “masquerading as heterosexual” because s/he is afforded all of privileges of a heterosexual. But to speak (with contempt) about this act as demeaning to gay identity is over-simplifying. It is as if to say that anyone who has sex with a person of the same sex is gay. What about his wife and family? Can we consider the possibility that he is actually attracted to both men and women, and that this, in effect, is a completely different closet of which he must come out? I agree that there are people in heterosexual marriages who fool around with same-sex partners because they are, in fact, gay. And this is problematic, and yes, it demeans gay identity and distorts society’s perception of it. But I think it’s important to recognize that bisexuality is a unique, and often misunderstood, identity, and we must be more sensitive in our analysis of such issues.
One of the reasons I’m out (but could be further out) is that I refuse to treat my same-sex relationships as less significant or worthy of respect than my other-sex relationships.
I personally don’t give a shit about anyone’s orientation - if a man or woman is in a committed relationship with another man or woman, then he doesn’t get to cheat his ass off and lie about it! Cheating is cheating and it doesn’t matter what gender he or she is cheating with.
I have thought this for a very, very long time. I remember a rather bitter lady whose husband had left her because he was gay. She was extremely homophobic, and campaigned against gay rights at every opportunity. I understand that in her case, it was motivated by bitterness and vengeance, but I did (once) try to point out that if gays had rights, and societal standing (if not actual approval), then they wouldn’t end up marrying straights - with the inevitable heartache for both sides - they’d just marry each other and “leave” the straights alone… (Needless to say, this fell on deaf ears…)
I feel like if this was 50 years ago, these men (and their wives) would more accurately be viewed as tragic victims of a virulently heterosexist society. Is the sense now that gays’ position in society has improved enough that there is an outright responsibility to be out of the closet? My thought is that the trauma associated with coming out varies a lot depending on ones circumstances in life, and for some people it may be a rational decision, if an unhealthy and unadmirable one, to stay closeted, even in this day and age. Or is a person engaging in this behavior decades ago not a valid comparison to someone doing this today?
From # 4 BlackBloc Jul 24th, 2007 at 11:54 am
“…is to tell them that if they’re involved with someone that they need to tell them first about the encounter and see that they’re okay with it.”
That seems right.
If ever a personal homo-attraction to a married male friend went beyond simple friendship
[if friendship’s ever altogether simple]
I would want to know that she were (he was?) ok with it
[probably not, mostly]
Limits one’s options but it’s right. Certainly in the long term.
[the whole ‘openness’ conundrum]
We have some societal growing up needs doin’.
Getting some better, tho.
cheers…all
Usually I wait until after I get home from work to comment. But since I am going thru the post-disclosure phase of a mixed orientation marriage, I couldn’t wait.
I was shocked when my soon to be ex-husband told me he was gay and was HIV+. Thru the str8 spouse support network, I have met many women who were in William’s wife’s situation. So what happens after he comes out of the closet for whatever reason? Or the wife finds out by mistake by looking on his computer?
The bottom line is, this man is endangering his wife by his sexual activity. I hope he uses condoms at home.
And yes, I am getting divorced. I will be free in October.
I have these friends who have been married for ten years, and it just boggles their minds how we could have a monogamous relationship. A couple friends are similar. They just have no interest in a monogamous relationship, and it works great for them. But that’s because they are very open and honest with each other (in fact, the couple that has been married for ten years is the most stable couple I’ve ever met).
So it seems that it can work. But only if both parties are well aware of the arrangement and honest with each other. But if one is going around behind the other’s back, not so good.
Part of me just wants to believe that people like to have secrets.
Considering that I’ve heard tales of people cheating even in open and/or polyamorous relationships, yes, some people just get off on the thrill of lying to his/her significant other(s). That doesn’t make that person any less of an asshole, though.
And saying that you’re doing it because of social pressure to appear monogamous is also an enormous cop-out. Is it hard to have the conversation with your S.O. that you want an open relationship difficult? Of course. Is there a high likelihood that things won’t work out? Yep. But that’s not an excuse. Life isn’t all puppies and rainbows, and you don’t get to lie to other people just to make your own life easier.
Rhea,
A good deal of the w for w ads on craigslist come from women whose boyfriends or husbands know about the “bi-curious” thing. Not all, but in a lot of cases there is a difference in the weight that extramarital “bi-curious” sex is given for women than men. This is nothing new of course, but worth noting. Not a threat to the marriage in the same way because sex between women is often not really considered sex. The interesting side of this stereotype/male fantasy is that it in *some cases* creates an easier path for the woman to explore her “other life” while not losing the safety of the marriage. On the other hand, some people are just in to open relationships.
Anyway, if you really want to have your cake and eat it too, you marry someone who is fine with some extra action on the side and for god’s sakes don’t lie to them about it.
Is it reasonable for me to say that I hate “bi-curious” and many of its implications?
“She figured that married guys would be less likely to get any ideas about getting attached, and married Marines in particular, since adultery can get you court-martialed.”
Less likely to get attached, less likely to mention it to anyone–or, if they do, it’s with the understanding that it needs to be officially deniable–and more likely to be on the same page as far as non-gossip discretion goes. You also wouldn’t have to worry about them pulling any blackmailesque bullshit on you, since you’ve got just as much on them if not more. If you’re a closeted gay man and your furtive-sex partner has just as much to lose from exposure as you do, you’re not likely to get outed as a result of your liaison with them. They’re not going to decide that the world needs to know, and they’re going to deny everything if somebody starts asking pointed questions. If you were going to do that sort of thing, it really seems like it’d be the ideal situation.
Ick. I’m only halfway through the article and I just want to throttle the son of a bitch. I have no patience for cowards of this sort. And this is why being closeted is a deal-breaker for me when I’m dating anyone. Yeah, coming out can be hard, but it’s also absolutely necessary.
Cbrach–yes, it’s totally reasonable. Especially since I think it plays into some of the larger shit that bi people sometimes get from both the straight and the queer community. You know, “not being able to make up your mind” and other such nonsense.
It says to me that the person wants to reserve the privilege of running back into the closet at the first sign of trouble.
RadicalCentrist:
This is part and parcel of the crap that the idiots who claim being gay is a choice. This woman probably felt that her husband decided he liked guys better, like it’s something you can decide, like it’s something you just up and say “You know, although thinking about a man’s hot naked body never turned me on before, suddenly I think it’d be cool to go have sex with a guy” (swap genders around as necessary).
What bugs me about this attitude is that these folks must think that gay sex is a hell of a lot of fun if it’s so tempting to people. And that makes me wonder how piss-poor their own sex lives are. I mean, if you know that sex can be mind-blowingly good, that it can lead to bliss that’s hard to believe, then I have hard time thinking about how you could imagine that gay sex could be that much more tempting.
In her case, of course, there are more complications. She may have tried her best to satisfy him, and feel it was all thrown in her face by his going gay. She might not be able to wrap her mind around the idea that the best she could do just wouldn’t work because she wasn’t a guy.
(And this is a prime example of why our society needs to grow up about sex and sexuality.)
Mnemosyne, I agree. It is a cop out and what William is doing is wrong on a lot of levels. I think what is truly unfortunate is that it appears William is willing to lie and even to himself about everything, just to avoid living freely. William seems have trapped himself pretty tightly.
It is hard to talk to a spouse about what you want (especially if you’ve not told them over years and years). its incredibly unfair to that spouse for several reasons, one being you are not offering them the opportunity to also be honest. its quite possible William’s wife is straight as a little arrow and vanilla like ice cream, but for all he knows, she’s trolling for Domme hot bi babes. If both partners were honest good things might possibly occur. I say this having walked that walk with my spouse and we are both happier for it. We are a good example of what happens when you both tell the truth and both enjoy the outcome.
Some people like hiding and lying I guess. I don’t.
*shrug*. My wife and I are quite open about our desires, and she happily has another woman she occasionally has a night out with (yes, including sex) and I occasionally do the same with a guy.
I’ve had to deal with the occasional idiot who thinks I’ll buy the “My wife/gf/SO is okay with me being with someoen else, he/she just doesn’t want to know about it, so we’ll have to sneak around” line. I don’t know if my wife has had that problem with other women, but she has griped about similiar issues.
Our basic rule of thumb is: If the person we’re looking at is attached, their spouse/SO/gf/bf/whatever has to know what’s going on. Doesn’t feel ethical otherwise.
We called ourselves “bi-curious” until we’d done it a few times. It seemed to fit — we were curious about same-gender sex. After we decided we liked it, we moved to “bisexual”.
Frankly, openness and honesty is a hell of a lot nicer — no sneaking around. But then again, I’m in a marriage that accepts that sort of openness — something we were both looking for.
Admittedly, the “other people” thing sort of snuck up on us over the last two years. Before that, it wasn’t even on the radar. But I find the further my horizons expand, the more in life I’m curious to try.
Sad letter in the paper the other day froma woman whose husband was in a car accident and died. She went to clean out his desk, locker at the club, etc. and realized he was having an affair with three other people. You can never assume your spouse won’t find out, and in a very painful way. Therefore, it’s totally presumptuous to say I won’t tell my spouse to avoid THEIR pain. You may not end up having any control over that, or even ability to apologize. To make matters worse, the woman felt she had to keep quiet to her friends so her child would never find out what a jerk dad was by accident.
Well, the cheating is obviously wrong. But I’m interested that people object to this guy’s choosing to remain in the closet. Sure, it isn’t helping anything, but 50 years ago, nobody would blame this guy for making that choice. Suppose he has career aspirations that he knows will be negatively impacted by not appearing straight and married. How do you decide what sacrifices are required before we say, “okay, the personal cost in this case outweighs the social benefit”. This interests me b/c a very similar issue appears with respect to feminism. I don’t see how can draw clear lines on all these issues. It seems like a large area is debatable or maybe just personal choice.
Here’s another fact: There is no such thing as a Straight man who repeatedly risks his reputation, marriage and family cohesion for unpaid sexual encounters with other men! I don’t care what takes place during those encounters. Such a man is either Gay or bisexual, but most likely Gay. Straight men in the habit of having sex with men only do so for pay, or in situations like prison where they have no access to women for a long time. In both cases, they have to mentally disengage from the act somehow, much in the same way Gay men do when they have sex with women.
I don’t know, i think this portion of the comment is inane. S/he (writing the comment) seems to assume that there’s a totally stable, if deeply hidden, One True Sexuality inside of every boy and girl that has some kind of escape clause for 1) money and 2) prison. Now, these two things haven’t been around for that long and neither have the categories of gay and straight, or male and female, as we know them. And they’re not stable from place to place, either. So as much as fooling around behind your marriage is unethical and selfish, i think it’s misunderstanding what the closet is to assume that money and prison are acceptable ways to get into one. If that were the case, i’d just get married, get all the trappings of a heteronormative life, and then every time i wanted to have sex with dudes, i’d leave some small non-sequential bills on the dresser or ask for the same, to prove i was magically really straight.
@ mpowell–
We’re not talking about fifty years ago, though, are we?
There are certain times when staying in the closet can be justified. For example, a gay teenager living in a fundamentalist or very conservative/homophobic home where he/she could be in real physical danger should probably stay in the closet while in that situation. That’s not what we are talking about with the guy in this article. It seems to me that his reasons for not coming out have mostly to do with enjoying his privileged status as a straight man.
As for career ambitions that might be affected, in his particular case he’s living in NYC, a pretty tolerant part of the country towards gay folks, and I’d be willing to bet that if he’s working in finance and with a large firm that like most Fortune 500 companies, the firm has a non-discrimination policy in regards to sexual orientation. So I call bullshit on that. But okay, let’s assume that wasn’t the situation, and that his career could be negatively impacted. Yeah, that sucks, but the only way that we as a society are going to move towards being more accepting is to have more gay people come out of the closet to their families and friends. Once people know someone who is gay it’s a lot harder to demonize gays as a group.
I’ve banged a lot of them. And half the gay guys i know are divorced with kids. Some are selfishly trying to have the best of both worlds, but some really are in denial until late and by then they’re married with kids.
Matthew, Patron Saint of Affogato: Exactly.
My husband and I have a somewhat open marriage. We play as a couple with others, or don’t play with others at all. We agreed on this over four years ago now, quite a few months before we got married. Both of us have come from polyamorous situations, both good ones and bad ones, and we’ve seen too many breakups among poly friends of ours to not be super-cautious. So we instituted the “play only as a couple” rule and have concentrated almost exclusively on building our relationship as a couple. Result: a very stable marriage and a very rare bit of extramarital fun, as a couple. It’s all honest and aboveboard.
If he wanted to have sex with men, I wouldn’t stop him, I’d just insist on condoms all ’round, the same as we insist on when we play with others. (Accidental pregnancy is not an issue here. He long since had a vasectomy and I am in full-blown menopause. Condoms are for safer sex for us, not for pregnancy prevention.) And he wouldn’t object, because he abides by safer sex guidelines by choice, as do I, except with each other. Any possible fluid bonding outside that would come only after an extended relationship had developed, and only under a condom compact.
But as to the woman who was described as very bitter about her gay ex-husband: I could have turned out very bitter indeed about my transgender ex-husband, and for a little while, less than a year, I was. But I chose not to be bitter, and to remain friends with Christine, who had been my friend before I married her and who has remained my friend to this day, 22 years later. She’s a remarkable (and drop dead gorgeous) woman just entering her 50s, and I feel lucky to have a friend like her. Someone’s sexual or gender orientation is not a choice, but how one responds to one’s spouse or former spouse’s sexual or gender orientation IS a choice. I choose to be friends with my trans ex-spouse, because she is one of the world’s coolest people (IMO), and I think she feels the same about me. She asked a total of two people to be her support people for her SRS, her mother and me. I was honored, and of course I went, though it was out of state. If she ever does go on a talk show to promote her autobiography, something that she’s discussed, she wants me to go with her, and I’ll do it.
River, IMO Christine is lucky to have a friend like YOU.
I think this behavior stems more from misogyny than from a desire to stay closeted, whether that’s right or wrong given the conditions faced by homosexuals. The lack of basic respect for one’s wife necessary to perpetrate this serious fraud on her stems from a view that women are disposable, and that their decision making must be subordinate to that of the husband’s. Their secrecy is merely part of this action, not necessarily a desire to be closeted.
“Fourth, that masquerading as heterosexual reinforces heterosexism as a societal norm.”
Also trying to live a lie like that has to increase temptation to exaggerate nominally “heterosexual” characteristics and express greater intolerance in hopes of passing. Also a temptation to adopt “for procreation only” arguments as a cover for non-preference distaste with one’s spouses.
And it has to increase that temptation even if you’re mask has a well-meaning “some of my best friends are gay” veneer.
Reading all of this reminds me so much of a guy I know who is about to get married. I’ll bet he ends up in exactly the same situation as “William.” He’s not judgmental about other people’s sexuality, but I’m fairly certain he’s gay and just won’t admit it. Before becoming engaged, he did that whole overly aggressive heterosexuality thing — bragging about how many women he’s fucked, like he has something to prove. I do think that his “desire for all the social trappings and approval afforded to him via his relationship to his [soon-to-be] wife is something he must cling to.” Oh, and as per Daniel Turner’s comment, he’s a huge misogynist asshole. He treats women like shit, and I’m sure his wife will be no exception.
Oh, but I wouldn’t say that “this behavior stems more from misogyny than from a desire to stay closeted.” I’d say that the desire stay closeted stems from misogyny, which is part of what Pam was saying, I thought. The desire to stay closeted doesn’t come from a belief that being gay is evil or wrong or immoral, it comes from an unwillingness to give up one’s privilege as a straight (and in the case of William and the guy I know, white) male. Being on the “down low” allows them to keep their privilege and have all the hot gay sex they want to have.
The more anti-female bigotry becomes extreme and glorified by males, the more I believe they just want to fuck the hell out of each other. Honestly, their libido is high-octane and they are highly sensitive to visual stimuli so I think their sexuality is most “practical” (see: prison).
I once interviewed an Indian man, a trucker, for an HIV/AIDS research project and he casually told me about having sex with other male truckers because they’re available, horny, and know what males like. Mind you, this man was ultra-conservative (Women, thou art evil!) and yet when discussing these homosexual acts he spoke of it matter-of-factly. Of course, in his mind he was not gay–at all (He was homophobic, of course). Since then, I just assume all, if not most, males are bisexual.
River, same “package deal” rule in my marriage. We play together or not at all.