More brilliance from the Passive Aggressive Notes blog.
Cary Tennis, in an effort to find and give the worst advice possible, has managed to give passive aggression an even worse reputation than it already has. Today’s letter-writer has a rude boyfriend who ogles other women in front of her in a really obvious manner, though it’s unclear if he does it because he’s trying to humiliate her or if he just thinks she’s stupid. It doesn’t matter, really, because Cary Tennis proposes that she react to this rudeness not by calling it out but by participating in her own humiliation by first joining in with the boyfriend, offering ratings of women, and analyzing women who catch his eye so she can properly lower her self-esteem by dwelling on her inadequacies. Cary seems to be a bit cheeky with this—he seems to think there’s a good chance that the first time this woman calls her boyfriend out by participating in the ogling of women, he’ll be so embarrassed as to cut it out—but he seems to be holding out hope that the woman and her boyfriend can participate together in this girlfriend-humiliating ritual and bond over it. I’m not so sure.
Of course, there are those who will immediately take this to mean that I Hate Men and that I’m saying the Looking Is Wrong, and I’m not. I’m saying that it’s not really very polite to rub your lover’s nose in your lust for others and try to make him or her jealous.
It’s worth noting, too, that it’s possible that she’s just over-reacting and her boyfriend is trying to be discreet about looking. But assuming that her anxiety has a genuine cause in a boyfriend who rudely ogles women in front of her, he does have a respect issue.
But not only is the passive aggressive approach that Cary is advising wrong, it’s also bad passive aggression, as was noted in the thread at Feministe. Passive aggression is an art form, albeit an emotionally unhealthy one. If you are satirizing someone’s behavior to him, you have to do it in a way that he can’t call you out without digging a hole for himself, and playing the victim to his humiliations is a weak way to do it. This letter-writer at Salon knows how to play this game much better:
I finally solved the problem by refusing to notice what my boyfriend is noticing when we’re out and about. Instead, I focus on who is noticing me. I catch the glances coming my way and smile back and the guys who smile at me. If BF notices, he generally gets grumpy but says nothing…but it seems to hae a chilling effect on his wandering eye. If he doesn’t notice, who cares, I’m having fun with a behavior I am proving to myself is harmless, which makes me less obsessive about him when HE does it.
Well-played. She even has a thin “I’m doing this for you” rationale should he start playing the double standard card where he insists on his male privilege to flirt in front of her without having that shit put back on him. The self-negation strategy Cary recommends is kindergarten shit; ideally, passive aggression should be about getting revenge and getting a cookie for yourself to pay yourself for putting up with someone else’s bullshit. Of course, her strategy taken to its logical conclusion results in outright cheating, but again, I’m not recommending passive aggression, just admiring the creative impulse behind a lot of it.
The rest of the letters follow as you would expect, considering that half the letter writers at Salon are firmly of the opinion that women are inferior to men and should live cheerfully in servitude—lots of bragging about having girlfriends who enjoy being compared unfavorably to other women, discussions about how good women should appreciate being made to feel small, suggestions that any woman who asks not to be humiliated in public by a boyfriend broadcasting the signal that he’d like to be fucking basically anyone else but her is out of line.
How dare anyone think they have the right to tell another person what he/she should look at or think about?
(When he’s masturbating – which is far more often than you think – he’s never, I repeat never, thinking about you. Should you be able to dictate those images and imagined situations, too?)
Evolve. And, enough with the thought police already.
It seems worth noting that the Evil Bitch (which is basically all women to the 50% of letter-writers to Salon) never suggested that her boyfriend has no right to think about other women or look or masturbate, just that it would be nice if he didn’t go out of his way to make her feel jealous in public. But I suppose it’s hard to actually argue that you have a right to make people feel small whenever you like so that you can feel the pleasure of lording it over them. But it does shore up my suspicion that this entire situation has nothing to do with “appreciating beauty” or “just looking”, but everything to do with claiming the right to make your sex partner insecure and unhappy by radiating an “anyone but you” attitude. Plus, the flailing around in this letter, the need to make sure his comment casts the widest net, that as many women as possible get hurt by it.
Question: Is this level 10 passive aggression or would it be characterized as real aggression?
After my first husband died, I met the man who has become my second husband. He, too, had a propensity to drool. When pushed to my limit, I tried a different tack. I took him aside and whispered “The next time you look at another woman when you’re with me, or make inappropriate comments, I want you to remember something. My first husband had a huge cock. He could screw me for hours and make me scream until I passed out. So, don’t go comparing me to other women because I would not do that to you.” He gulped, turned pale, and that was the end of that behavior. In both cases, the shock value made a lasting impression. They got the message, loud and clear.
She then compares men to puppies that need training, proving once again that the idea that the “men are dogs” narrative is as much anti-man as anti-woman.
Then there’s this(!):
I have a similar problem but in cyberspace. My boyfriend likes to have his profile posted on various Internet dating sites, and he keeps his status there as “single” though we are dating. I have told him it makes me uncomfortable but he claims it’s just for fun and to have “friends.” I haven’t considered myself as a jealous type, but it bothers me that he seems to feel free to surf on the Internet as a single guy chatting with women (and most of his contacts seem to be women) when at the same time he tells me we’re a couple. I don’t know how to deal with it, I have no experience of such a problem with my previous boyfriends.
I just hope she’s insisting on using condoms until she works up the courage to dump her cheating boyfriend.
Hat tip to Anne for the link.
74 Responses to “Passive aggression: Not for amateurs”
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I, personally, would object to this behavior on the basis that it’s misleading to the women who interact with him via that profile—he is lying to them that he is single, he is playing with them, he is not being fair to them, and he’s cheating on them, as it were, as much as on me.
(Either that or, since he says he’s single, he must have broken it off with me. So I guess I’m not with him anymore. Bye-bye, ex!)
I am in a strange kind of awe for the first two women you quoted. The first because she is so damned sneaky. If passive aggression is a form of self-defence for women under the patriarchy, she’s got a dark belt - at least brown.
The second woman is being full-out aggressive. If she’s also being honest I have to admire her bluntness. She also scares me, although not as much as being in a relationship with an asshole.
and the ad at the bottom bears the legend “Life is short. Have an affair.” The mind boggles at the google ad metrics.
on a more related note; I have to ask at what point in a male child’s life does he learn how to respect people (in this case, women, but I’ve seen it with my gay friends too) enough not to pull this kind of stunt when he is with a sexual partner?
on a more personal note, I found it exceedingly difficult to have a conversation that included eye contact with my male friends/family in a gay bar, because every time the door to the room opened they would suddenly stop talking/listening and case the person coming in. Every time. Even when I would call them on it, they would laugh at themselves and then continue doing it.
It really is an art form. Good passive aggression is behavior-as-satire. Hell, even weak passive aggression is an attempt to satirize your target.
It’s wrong, though. Much better to start a blog and just openly fantasize about clever passive aggression out loud and be nice in real life.
I think you could add to the title of this article, Relationships: Not for Amateurs.
As I was reading I was thinking that these must be high school kids right? Even the advice is something a high school best friend might give. I thought relationships started with a mutual respect. How is the advice given or the actions that prompted them respectful in any way. Gimme a break.
That’s ballsiness which I dream not of.
This may be a deeply stupid question, since no one seems to even allude to it on Salon, here or at Feministe.
And yeah, with the caveat that passive aggressive tactics are a distant second to just saying ‘honey, that bothers me’ and dealing with it like actual adults.
But beyond that, why doesn’t this woman just start checking out other guys in public? As soon as her bf has glued his eyes to some passerby’s breasts, she just has to start oogling some ripped hunk. And start murmuring dreamily to her bf ‘oh wow, look at his body. I’ll bet her works out. *giggle!*’ and ‘oh my god, he must be hung like a horse!’ and so on.
Because if I were going to do the passive aggressive shit, that’s what *I’d* do.
Am I just really weird, or is there a good reason why a woman can’t/shouldn’t/never would EVER check out hot men in public?
Checking out other guys is definitely a step up the passive aggressive ladder, but even better is smiling at guys checking you out. It might seem like a subtle difference, but it’s really not. If he’s kind of a sexist—and odds are that if he’s rubbing your nose in his male privilege, he is—he will find other men’s interest in you far more threatening than your own desires. Plus, it attacks the offense more directly. He has made you feel small, so you boost your ego with some attention from other men.
Mandatory caveat about how it’s wrong, if entertaining.
I have caught myself looking at other women while out w/my wife (at the mall, restaraunt, etc) and have always felt guilty about it. She has always been understanding and has said that she doesn’t mind it as long as I don’t make sexist comments or try to start up conversations w/them. Which I don’t. She seems to think it a natural thing for men to look at women and I guess it is, but I just try not to out of respect.
Mandatory caveat about how it’s wrong, if entertaining.
There’s a morallly bankrupt contest/reality show in there somewhere.
Is this level 10 passive aggression or would it be characterized as real aggression?
Can’t really qualify as passive as she straightforwardly and personally describes the behavior she finds unacceptable and states that it is in fact unacceptable. I mean it’s not like you could say she’s trying to avoid confrontation.
Why “turnabout is fair play” is weak passive aggression that’s bound to fail:
Which is why the soaking-up-other-men’s-gazes is a nastier and more effective weapon; no easy counter.
I have no idea why this shit amuses me so much. If it’s going on in my own life, it makes me sick to my stomach. (Though I can safely say that of all the problems I’ve had with men, ogling other women in front of me has never even come up. I’m honestly shocked it seems to be a problem.) But from a safe distance, petty cruelties have their amusements. Good reality TV always has some really good snake-in-the-grass character.
Am I just really weird, or is there a good reason why a woman can’t/shouldn’t/never would EVER check out hot men in public?
When I was in high school, my best friend and I hung out with a few guys. The guys were not in the least bit shy about ogling, evaluating, and even catcalling when a hot woman was in sight.
When I nudged my friend and said quietly, “That guy’s pretty cute”, the boys howled in protest, complaining how “sick” and “rude” we were, calling us “horn dogs” and such…
And thus was I started on the path to feminism.
And yeah, with the caveat that passive aggressive tactics are a distant second to just saying ‘honey, that bothers me’ and dealing with it like actual adults.
I think the problem here is that for many guys wrapped up in their own privilege “honey, this bothers me” is not an excuse to change behaviours, or even discuss those behaviours.
Personally, my boyfriend is often quite upfront with me if he sees a woman he finds attractive, but he doesn’t do it to hurt me, which is one of the key things– the other key thing is that we’ve had numerous discussions about the difference between physical attraction and objectification. I won’t stand for comments that I feel are objectifying– there’s none of this “getting in on the action” stuff with him, like the first example quoted. It’s just that if he sees a woman he finds attractive, he’ll say “wow, she was attractive”, and I might say similar things about men that I see. (Sorry to be so heteronormative here, but we’re both heterosexual, so…) However, he doesn’t go around rampantly ogling women, nor does he say things like “cor, look at her tits!” and other such distasteful-reducing-women-to-body-parts things. And we are able to do this because we have strong trust and communication between us– something that is clearly lacking for the women in the articles addressed in this blog.
Joining the boyfriend in checking out other women can be an thing if you’re bi. Then it either works like whoa as a passive aggressive thing (see: my first ex), or serves as a nice bonding activity…particularly if he’s bi too, because then men get included.
*an interesting thing, that is
I think the problem here is that for many guys wrapped up in their own privilege “honey, this bothers me� is not an excuse to change behaviours, or even discuss those behaviours.
It’s probably more likely to turn into a whine about nagging and why can’t a man ever be left to his own thoughts and why do you have to be so irrational about it, huh?!
If that first woman follows Tennis’s advice her BF is going to try and get her into a threesome, so i hope she’s into it.
Most of my relationships have been open, so looking at other men has never been an issue for either myself or the guy i’m with. A couple of years ago i was dating this guy that i really liked and he wanted to have a completely monogamous relationship AND he didn’t want to rush into sex. Well it was different so i gave it a go. He was getting calls or text messages from former fuck buddies and he would talk to these guys with me there. When asked what he was doing he would say that he was busy with a friend. He always managed to not tell these guys that he was in a monogamous relationship with someone. When i confronted him about it he got all defensive and pouty. Well of course i started cheating after that. He found out; we broke up, and of course i later found out that he was fucking around too. So why did HE want the monogamous relationship? We’d probably still be together if we had kept it open. What an asshole.
Sorry. Seem to have gone off on a tangent.
Makes perfect sense to me, pablo. It’s more about power than sex, about extracting something from another person that you aren’t willing to extend to them.
What I like to do is count up the estimated monthly beauty salon bill the lovely lady pays. Guys really have no sense of what is natural, what isn’t, and how much it costs. My husband had no idea that there was such a thing as highlights and lowlights and that you have to pay extra for each color. He even discusses this with the lady who cuts his hair and comes home all astounded from the salon. He points it out to his friends.
I am now trying to raise his consciousness to understand that this is money that men don’t have to pay out every month, and that the “catch a man” look leaves women in a deep financial hole.
He’s learning.
A little OT, but why is the note at the top of the post passive aggressive? It seems to me to be addressing the problem directly.
I like to imagine to myself how Dan Savage would answer this letter.
I agree with Beppie that just joining in and equally ogling helps my relationship with my partner. As avid people-watchers, we both tend to eye up men and women and comment to each other accordingly. Since we know what each other finds attractive, we even go out of our way to point out the especially appealing ones — he points out any tall cadaverous Aryan looking types and I poke him for the white skinned redheads with freckles. OK, now that I read this, maybe we are kinda weird…
But I agree with Amanda that the passive-aggressive thing is pretty fascinating. I admire the subtlety of the woman soaking up masculine approval as an exercise in empathy. As my partner always says, “I am very passive-aggressive, but I try to only use my powers for good”. It IS an art form, but has the potential for so much damage.
Jeff: Because it’s probably aimed at someone specifically who does that, but is taking a generalized tone to be more polite about it.
You’re probably right on my asshole former BF, Amanda.
I think that the woman’s BF who is checking out other women in an obvious manner is doing it to keep her insecure about their relationship, and that he himself is insecure about her leaving him so this is his method of keeping them together. It’s just a theory.
Oh, now I see. And now the note seems pretty funny.
I wonder if the woman luxuriating in the attention other men give her isn’t just taking to first step towards leaving assholio. And maybe already imagining she’s with these other guys.
Hmmmm…
Don’t know what to say on this one. I mean, if he’s doing double and triple takes and going up and down the body like a scanner, then yeah. That’s certain rude and obnoxious. On the other hand, I’ve seen enough situations where oogling simply means looking, and that in itself, and while it can be caused by basic insecurity issues, more often than not is about control, and wanting to control even the smallest of the other person’s actions.
And as opposed to the CW, I’ve seen more men do this type of control than women, and tends to be part of a broader abusive relationship.
Can I get multilingual business cards to hand out on the bus that read “Please! Do not hold long and excited cell phone conversations on a closed-up bus or train WHEN YOUR BREATH REEKS!”
Maybe a gum wrapper?
I dislike passive agressiveness in any form and here its no better. Plus, Cary is asking this woman to consider doing something she might not be comfortable with. Why not ask him to stop making her uncomfy? If he won’t stop or accuses her of over reacting then there might be a clear cut case of controlitis.
Thing is, I think that couples can look at other people (bodies etc) and gain closeness from it, stoke the fires etc, if they are honest and ethical and gentle about how they do it. It should be a mutual pleasure in my opinion.
But advising a woman to play that kind of mind game (esp the rating of the observed objectified woman) makes me cranky.
[…] Amanda Marcotte: Of course, there are those who will immediately take this to mean that I Hate Men and that I’m saying the Looking Is Wrong, and I’m not. I’m saying that it’s not really very polite to rub your lover’s nose in your lust for others and try to make him or her jealous. […]
The young man who was looking at women in front of his girlfriend was probably trying to provoke her. He’s angry about their sex life, and he’s not sure why. She should help him figure it out if she plans to stick around.
My partner and I have been together 43 years (and have seven grandkids). Our marriage weathered the 60s and 70s not to mention the 80s (since then it’s been rather quiet). We’ve flirted and cheated and other things over the years but managed to stay together. I agree completely with Tennis’ advice. We both check out other women and we have complex opinions about how they look and how they’re dressed and how they present themselves.
Ok I may not be perfect. I’m a Bill Clinton type of feminist. I hope you’ll forgive my transgressions, but my heart is firmly on the side of women. I just love women. I’ll do anything to make my partner’s life better, and my daughter’s, and my grand-daughter’s as well. And that means helping them to be what they want to be (I know, a trite, well trodden aphorism, but it still means something to me).
I think you’re unduly harsh to condemn men who love women. Plenty of conservatves I know don’t really like women. They want them subservient, pliant. They say they like women but they really don’t. They really would rather be on the golf course with their buddies.
If you’re going to reject men who like women then you’ll really be on your own.
Monkey’s Aunt–True but I wouldn’t trivialize the cost of hair transplant surgery or even at least regular use (i.e. over several months) of Rogaine, etc. which are pretty much a necessity for many guys to be passably attractive even through their 20s if they don’t have ideal genetic material.
sorry if I came across as an mra troll, I have minimal hair loss so it’s not an issue for me personally, although as far as spending money for appearance goes I will probably blow four figures on Lasik (which if it matters is more gender-neutral than either example) when I can afford it.
As for other things discussed so far, the dating site thing is pretty crazy; I’ve steered away from pay sites but I would kill my account immediately if I had one when ending up in a serious relationship.
Meh, I try not to shop for new cars when I have one already. Metaphorically speaking.
If you’re going to reject men who like women then you’ll really be on your own.
Can we just reject men who don’t pay attention to what people are actually saying and instead respond to imaginary accusations of whatever they feel defensive about?
We both check out other women and we have complex opinions about how they look and how they’re dressed and how they present themselves.
Does it bother you at all, as a man, to be so open about the fact that your partner isn’t interested in men sexually, only women? Or is tolerance all you hope for from her, never enthusiasm?
Or is it that she actually does have “complex opinions” about how men look, but you just don’t want to hear about it?
I’m a Bill Clinton type of feminist.
No, you really aren’t. You can accuse Bill Clinton of having a wandering eye and taking advantage of his subordinates, but you can’t accuse him of getting off on women judging other women and pretending that heterosexual women aren’t primarily interested in looking at men, unless you know something about him the rest of us don’t.
reminds me of this article.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/woman/story/0,,2118193,00.html
A bunch of guys go on and on about the number of times they’ve cheated on their wives, and then when asked if they’d go for an open relationship, they unanimously say “no.” Gah.
Also, I have to say, when I catch a guy looking at me and he’s with his girlfriend, I openly sneer at him. Show some respect to her, asshole.
at what point in a male child’s life does he learn how to respect people
In my case, it was around 11 or 12,.
FWIW, in my experience, the parental unit(s) do not put up with disrespect towards themselves or others.
Also, they can set an example by being willing admit when they make a mistake, and not try to set themselves up as being on a higher plane because of age and experience.
The best passive-aggressive line a woman said to me was what Mother Avenger told me after my first high school play:
“Well, DA, you weren’t as bad as I’d thought you’d be.”
DA,
that’s classic; my mom used to say when I accomplished something: “well, I expected this of you…”
)
I think you’re unduly harsh to condemn men who love women.
Making your sex partner feel unattractive and like you’re desperately casting around for anyone to wet your dick but her is not “loving women” in my book. In fact, another word springs to mind readily. If you love someone, you understand that respecting them enough to be discreet and not make them feel bad is minimal politeness.
I’ve dated a lot of men, have seen a lot of things, been witness to some nasty behavior, etc. But I have never had a boyfriend that ogled women in front of me and made me feel like he was seeking for my replacement ASAP. I’m honestly shocked that this is a problem for so many women. I think the comments section fascinated me because I would have never guessed that this is such a problem for so many women.
I reject men who hate women while claiming to love them. It’s worked out for me pretty well, I think. Turns out if you don’t waste your time on obvious assholes, you have time to spend on more pleasant ones.
I’m honestly shocked that this is a problem for so many women.
So was I, when I first experienced it. I’ve never actually dated anyone who does it, but when I got to college it seemed like all of my girlfriends had drooling eyeballs for boyfriends.
I remember when my roommate’s boyfriend, after my roommate had left for a second, turned to me and said yeah, if I hadn’t asked her out (points to girlfriend outside) than I would have asked you out. It was either or. How do you feel about me, huh ?
I told her to dump him about seven minutes later. But last I heard, they were engaged. BLECH. He continually compared her to other women. Our culture tells us that guys just have to look and react, and girls who expect differently are whiny princess prima donnas; well, I am a goddam princess then, because I won’t and haven’t put up with it. Men have self-control, they just choose not to exercise it.
But he is single! He may be dating you but “dating” and “married” are two different things. The purpose of dating is to find the person you want to spend the rest of your life with (or at least the 6 years or so until you get divorced). If you say, “you are dating me, therefore you can’t date or even look for anyone else,” then you are expecting a level of commitment that you probably aren’t going to get. If you are in a long term relationship with a guy with at least the hint that marriage is in the future then you have a right to expect some of sort of monogamy. But to expect that every guy you date ONLY dates you is absurd.
The post trackbacking this one is cracking me up. The mind boggles.
To get back to the point of Amanda’s post, she is 100% right. A guy should never make his date feel uncomfortable and ogling at other women while on a date falls into that category. Either the guy is a total jerk who has no sense of the feelings of others or he is deliberately trying to belittle his date as some sort of control thing. Either way, he should be dumped at the first opportunity.
No matter how one feels about President Clinton (my God, how I miss saying that) he never stares at other women with Hillary in the room. He at least showed her some respect by trying to hide his affair. In fact, from all the things that President Clinton said about the affair, the thing that made him feel the worst was how it hurt his wife.
Oh, Tom, I don’t think that it holds any longer that if you’re not married, you are “single”, belonging to this great unwashed mass of dateable people. Monogamous unmarried relationships are a real thing, people accept them, they have the same functional rules of marriage, but they are just easier to dissolve. I’m single to the IRS, sure, but for the vast majority of the world, I’m officially not single.
If you say, “you are dating me, therefore you can’t date or even look for anyone else,� then you are expecting a level of commitment that you probably aren’t going to get. If you are in a long term relationship with a guy with at least the hint that marriage is in the future then you have a right to expect some of sort of monogamy.
See, I’m “dating” (living with) someone that I’m not looking to marry anytime in the foreseeable future, but believe me, neither he or I agree with you that we’re therefore free to fuck around. Whether you like it or not, the tradition of monogamous unmarried relationships has got a huge foothold and deserve basic respect.
I am passive-aggressive. I try not to be, but have found being upfront with most people is draining and time-consuming.
I don’t believe I’ve always been passive-aggressive, I think I adopted those behaviors as a survival tool. I got tired of being called a bitch, pushy, angry and/or gay. I am not saying that this is the way to deal with life, I am simply stating where I’m at.
Although, I do think there is a happy medium to be attained. Call it passive-aggressive zen. Letting people think that you are agreeing with them, while plotting to ignore everything they say… necessary survival tool. There are many situations where telling a person they have nothing of value to add is inappropriate.
I don’t know. Sometimes I think passive-aggression gets a bad rap. Of course I would, being passive aggressive.
*a note* any man that can’t keep his peepers on me needs to go spend time with someone else. I run down on myself enough, I don’t need his help. Seriously.
Which is really the whole point of a Cary Tennis column. That is his objective, right?
Amanda - That seems to describe your relationship, doesn’t it? Perhaps I’m a bit old-fashioned (I certainly am old) so perhaps “marriage” should be defined as a “life-long commitment”. For example, I would never claim that a gay couple who are committed to each other are not married, even if the law says otherwise.
But the idea that because you are dating a guy that he must never look for something better is silly. And of course the same goes for women.
Have we really arrived at the point where “dating” = “fucking around”? I think I was young at the wrong time.
Tom, I don’t believe we’re talking about simply looking. We’re talking about looking, and looking, drooling, looking at the current girlfriend, turning to doublecheck the passing female and obviously coming to the conclusion that the bird in the hand will do for now, but she’d better watch what she eats when she’s out this evening.
We’re talking about making sure the female feels as insecure in the relationship as possible, and knows how lucky she is he didn’t just turn and follow the prettier object.
We’re talking about Cary Tennis’ bizzaro need to include women in on their own ego bashing.
Looking is normal, comparing the physical attractiveness of every female that walks by as a measure of your “having the best” …that’s a little odd.
But beyond that, why doesn’t this woman just start checking out other guys in public? As soon as her bf has glued his eyes to some passerby’s breasts, she just has to start oogling some ripped hunk.
The problem is that men don’t dress themselves up to be ogled. I’ve been, ahem, making a *serious* study of this issue in my city, and I’ve concluded that for every attractively-put together boy, there are at least four attractive girls. True, some boys are stunning enough to be noticed no matter what, but most just don’t put themselves out there to catch your eye. And for me, anyway, there’s something about male attractiveness that I have to examine a little bit more up close and more at leisure than female attractiveness, which broadcasts itself more loudly in cleavage and heels.
fishboots- I think I made it clear that I agree with you and Amanda. My point was about the young woman complaining because she was dating a guy and he still was up on the dating web site. Unless you have a long term relationship with some sort of commitment, I don’t think you should expect your boyfriend to swear off all other females unless he is actually with you. Then common politeness should make him treat you as if you are the only woman he would ever be interested in.
I think what happens here is that everyone sees themselves in this article.
There are guys who like looking at women, but do it discreetly if at all and try to respect everyone involved. (Which means if his girlfriend is bothered by it, he doesn’t just go ahead and do it anyway.)
Then there are guys who make a show of it, trying to let the oglee know she’s just ornamentation and let his girlfriend know that she better measure up or he’s outta there.
These aren’t the same thing. Not even close.
Tom: in my social circles (mid-20s to early 30s, mostly grad students, teachers and librarians), the understanding is that while dating doesn’t have to be exclusive, it’s wrong to take advantage of this ambiguity; therefore the standard is that dating is exclusive unless the parties agree otherwise. (In other words, if there’s any reason to suspect something might not be okay, you *ask*.)
Marriage is just exclusive dating with a benefits package.
I’ve always been a big fan of demonstrating in a fun, colorful way why a particular behavior is hurtful.
I’m pretty sure I look at women aside from my wife in public, but I’m all subtle about it. No, really. I check out other guys too, and am more likely to look at a person if I’m judging their appearance harshly.
It’s certainly almost the only time I mention something to my wife… when I see somebody wearing something that they really shouldn’t. A lot of people don’t really know how to dress themselves presentably. She’s more likely to point out a well-dressed and attractive woman than I am; I just notice the badly dressed ones.
I don’t think she’d really object too much to me noticing attractive women, so long as I wasn’t a jerk about it. But maybe that’s why she hasn’t sought advice on the matter. Or maybe she did, and that letter was from her. Hmm… I’ll have to whine abut people who go behind their significant others’ backs to write letters to advice columns, just in case.
Tom, that young woman wasn’t complaining about a guy she was dating, she was complaining about her boyfriend, who had told her they were a couple. That imlies a steady relationship and her boyfriend being a jerk.
Tom,
Usually, when people are “dating”, are “boyfriend(s) and/or girlfriend(s)” (mixed the gendered terms as appropriate) or “in a relationship”, they have an exclusive relationship where they are not allowed (by eachother) to date other people or actively look for someone to date, even if they’re not considering marriage. Sometimes people have “open relationships” where they can date more than one person at a time, but most people don’t do that. If you’re dating someone and you find someone else you like, you either break up with your boy/girlfriend or talk to them about having an open relationship. In the case of the guy with the internet dating profiles, he should have either changed them to “in a relationship” or be honest and tell her he wants to date other people. Saying he’s just looking for “friends”, when the profile says otherwise, is just being an lying ass.
Some people go by different rules, but these are the rules that almost everyone I know goes by, and the ones that don’t specifically talked to their partners about what they wanted the rules to be. You can’t get into a relationship with someone and assume it will be open, you’ll just hurt them.
My partner is a very striking woman who has gotten more so with age. I am in constant awe that at 68 she has a figure that draws every eye in a room. Now is there something wrong with that? Are the men jerks for appreciating her looks? Do you think she would feel better if she got no reaction at all?
Among our circle of friends, the men compliment all of the women, not just the one they’re with. Is that a bad thing? I don’t think so.
I think all men interested in the opposite sex will notice if an attractive woman walks by. Among my male (mostly hetero) friends, those that are more self-centered will turn their heads or follow with their eyes, regardless of present company.
Those that are more aware of others will keep their observation discreet, out of respect to their SO, and out of respect for the woman walking by. It’s rude to stare at anyone in public.
Most of my friends that are guilty of ogling are, to my knowledge, not trying to to lord it over their SO to make them feel undesirable, but are simply oblivious to how obvious their attention is. Maybe that’s because I don’t mind if my friends are a bit oblivious, but I would not spend time with people who intentionally hurt others, especially the people they claim to care most about.
Anyone who intentionally points out or makes obvious their attraction to pretty women intentionally in order to make their SO jealous does not deserve the privilege of female companionship.
Ok I may not be perfect. I’m a Bill Clinton type of feminist. I hope you’ll forgive my transgressions, but my heart is firmly on the side of women. I just love women. I’ll do anything to make my partner’s life better, and my daughter’s, and my grand-daughter’s as well. And that means helping them to be what they want to be (I know, a trite, well trodden aphorism, but it still means something to me).
If your heart is firmly on the side of women, you may want to ask yourself how much you’d like getting ogled, and how much you’d like it if you were part of the population that is assigned as the sex class.
Yes, I know men say they’d like it, until I post up pics and a few go insane.
Here’s another tip. I don’t like being ogled. There’s a difference between being ogled and being noticed. There’s a difference between noticing someone and ogling. There’s a difference between a normal human response and being a fucking pig.
I notice your partner doesn’t check out men and make comments about men in front of you. How very convenient for you.
And I mean really–a Bill Clinton type of feminist? The guy who brought us welfare deform and adopted the right-wing’s agenda? Spare me.
And that difference is…?
Cary Tennis consistently gives unimaginably shitty advice. Once in a while he’ll say something sensible and point someone to a good organization that can help with their problem (for instance, in the article about the person’s concern for their parent who’s a hoarder), but this staring at women one was particularly execrable.
The fact that he gives this terrible advice in such a driveling, affected style just adds insult to injury.
Noticing: A person is walking past me.
Ogling: Wow, check that hottt-ass fucktoy walking past me! *lascivious stare*
Thank you, Sheelzebub, for bringing that up. Since I’m involved with another woman, I don’t really care for any male attention but there’s a huge difference between being noticed and being ogled. To me, “noticing” means looking away quickly or smiling when I catch them “noticing” me. “Ogling” means continuing to look me up and down or staring at my chest after I catch them. The former could be taken as a compliment or just friendliness. The latter is obviously intimidation and dominance. If I feel like prey, it’s not a compliment.
I’d also like to make note of the fact that when I’m with my partner, I’m usually paying attention to her and thus rarely notice other woman. And if I did notice someone, I’m certainly going to turn away and go back to paying attention to my partner. A quick peek is not worth hurting my partner’s feelings or making her feel inadequate. Although, she does have a “thing” for Rachel Ray. Does ogling women on TV count?
Tom sounds like he’s from my mom’s generation, where young people either “date” or “go steady.” It was hell trying to explain to her when I was in high school how so-and-so’s boyfriend was being a jerk by going after other girls, because in my mom’s eyes, high school students shouldn’t/don’t “go steady.” Just adults.
Boy, if that doesn’t make my mom (she’s not even 60) sound like Marge Simpson …
[…] Amanda at Pandagon has a nice post up about an issue that we’ve done some talkin’ ’bout here at MAID — men and their looking at women. She’s annoyed not with men (like us) who like looking at attractive women, but rather with men who can’t tell the difference between a kind of looking that’s appropriately discrete and a kind of looking that’s demeaning to the women being ogled and/or to the women (i.e. the girlfriends or wives) who the leerers are ignoring (or secretly trying to humiliate) while they’re checking out the other women. […]
The post trackbacking this one is cracking me up. The mind boggles.
He posts so obsessively about Amanda that I’m starting to think this is a crush, schoolboy style, on his part.
Although, she does have a “thing� for Rachel Ray. Does ogling women on TV count?
I know a few people who have a thing for Rachel Ray. I know it’s fashionable in some foodie circles to hate her, but I kinda like her. I think she’s a scream.
WRT “it’s only looking, stop yer whining you manhaterz!!1!”–The defensiveness in some quarters over women pointing out that checking out other women so obviously (and in front of your girlfriend) is well, fucking rude. Jeez. I check guys out all the time, but a) I don’t do it in front of someone I’m involved with and b) I don’t ogle and make myself look like a desperate, entitled sniveling jackass.
IOW: A hot guy walks by and I’ll think “Wow, he’s hot.” If I’m with a woman friend, I might even say to her very quietly, “He’s hot, isn’t he?” NOT “I’d like to hit that” ”
I’d like to get in on that action” or “I’d like to fuck that.” I notice, think, move on. I don’t turn my head or look him up and down or any of that shit.
That seems to describe your relationship, doesn’t it? Perhaps I’m a bit old-fashioned (I certainly am old) so perhaps “marriage� should be defined as a “life-long commitment�.
My attitudes about relationships are perhaps a tad more bohemian than most. I see no reason to get married, at least before you’re getting up in years where the financial benefits become more inescapable. As an institution, I don’t really care for it, no. I’m admittedly weird on this, but my point remains: Long-term monogamous relationships that may or may not have marriage as an endpoint are incredibly common and recognized. They’re “committed” on a certain level, in that most people have a time after they’ve been dating for a bit that they agree to monogamy. Once that’s happened, you’re not married….but you’re definitely not single.
But the idea that because you are dating a guy that he must never look for something better is silly.
No, I think it’s just basic morality not to entangle someone in a LTR, married or not, if you’re going to be unfaithful. If you’re not happy, move on. Whether or not you’re married is irrelevant to that point.
fishboots- I think I made it clear that I agree with you and Amanda. My point was about the young woman complaining because she was dating a guy and he still was up on the dating web site. Unless you have a long term relationship with some sort of commitment, I don’t think you should expect your boyfriend to swear off all other females unless he is actually with you.
Well, we assume that they are in a committed relationship, because she used the word “boyfriend”. Plus he reassures her he’s not cheating, implying that there’s a prior agreement.
My partner is a very striking woman who has gotten more so with age. I am in constant awe that at 68 she has a figure that draws every eye in a room. Now is there something wrong with that?
If the men looking at your prize-wife are doing so in a way that makes their own wives feel inferior and unwanted, yes.
Nope, I still don’t see any excuse for making your significant other feel like they’re second choice. No one’s offered a reasonable excuse for exploiting basic human insecurities to get a leg up on someone yet.
[…] It’s just a gentlemanly game of checking out that ass Amanda Marcotte at Pandagon comments on the passive aggressive nature of Cary Tennis’s advice/response to this letter. […]
My strong suspicion is that Tennis gives advice that is specifically designed to totally outrage one or more segments of Salon’s readership, and also to set different segments against one another. He is, I suspect, basically trolling for flame wars (i.e., clicks for Salon).
BTW, that is why I find his comment threads entertaining and, sometimes, informative. Tennis is really just an effective carnival barker.
My late husband, Bob, was particularly objectionable in his looking, but one time really stands out: we were at BayCon and kissing like newlyweds (which we were) in one of the main hallways. I had my eyes closed when I started to feel myself being turned. I tried to break away from the kiss but could not. I got turned in a nearly 360 circle, as he kept forcing a kiss on me while (it turned out) ogling an attractive woman in a swimsuit walking by.
I did, of course, say something about this, and not at all passive-aggressively; I attacked the matter at its head. That was how I found out about the woman in the swimsuit. Bob told me that he was only looking, which was harmless, and that he was with me. Well, there is a difference between looking harmlessly and ogling, and certainly a difference between looking harmlessly and ogling as you turn your wife in a circle while you’re kissing her, so that you can get a better look. I wasn’t bothered by “just looking”, as we had agreed that both sexes look and that harmless looking bothered no one. But this still bothers me to this day, five years after his death and 18 years after it happened.