This article at Details, brought to my attention by Jessica, seems almost designed to get the readers to hate men, even if they are in fact men, by boldly asserting a sort of universal equation between being a man and being a complete and utter asshole—who is obsessed with getting a crack at female asshole without getting enthusiastic consent. The assholery starts with the picture.
They paint a dreary picture of how terrible men are in such vivid detail I had to pinch myself and remind myself that I know plenty of men who don’t exhibit the behavior portrayed in this article. The ostensible subject is anal sex, but it’s really more about men who see sex primarily as a way to abuse women and shore up their own egos through domination. As you can imagine from the use of the word “demand”. No, it’s not really okay to “demand” any sex act. The very idea of demanding in ostensibly consensual relationships between adults is loathsome. As you can imagine, the rest of the article posits that women are alternately games of “Whack-A-Mole”, and men who penetrate the most orifices somehow win and that women are essentially restaurants where men can order off a menu, except you know, they don’t pay. (Genuine prostitutes have a reason to put up menus, I suppose.)
He starts off with a story to establish that there’s something incongruous about a woman that you treat with respect having a sex life that includes anal sex.
With all due respect to Salt-N-Pepa, let’s talk about Todd. Todd (not his real name) is a friend of a friend. He’s a rare breed—a finance guy who lives in L.A. He’s been dating the same ladylike woman for three years. They are the picture of late-twentysomething, Amstel Light—drinking America. The very first time they slept together, they had anal sex. Miss Ladylike had never tried it before. For the next five months, anal was the only kind of sex they had. Supposedly, Todd had intimacy issues, and penetrating Miss Ladylike’s rectum was less emotionally intense than venturing into the vagina. Eventually, Todd did the deed with Miss Ladylike in the usual way, and continues to, but they still have a whole lot of anal sex.
It might be mildly funny to point out the incongruity if the rest of the article didn’t reinforce the idea that women who have anal sex are dirty and have no self-respect and should be treated like pincushions. He quotes Dan Savage and points out anal sex is on the rise, which is interesting but makes me angry, because the rest of the story is cruel to women and makes men look like monsters, and Dan Savage and anal sex shouldn’t really be associated with those things, since Dan Savage and anal sex are fine things, and the nastiness of the rest of this article is not. He alludes to the fact that Savage has adamantly said that guys who “demand” anal sex are out of line, but doesn’t delve into it. (Savage basically says that men who want anal sex should offer up their own asses to their girlfriends first, strap-on in hand, as a show of good faith. If you can’t do that, then you should keep your mouth shut in the interest of fairness.)
Phillip, an engineer in Chicago, says he and his friends request a ride in the back seat because it’s a harder-to-reach goal than old-fashioned intercourse. “Once a guy has anal sex, he’s put on a pedestal by his peers,” he says.
Rule #1 of dating for the straight ladies: Guys who have to think about impressing their male friends while getting off with a woman are not worth your time. I’m not going to suggest they are gay, because that’s unfair to gay guys. They are just fucking weird.
Now for the part that made me really angry:
For other men, the appeal of anal penetration is less the novelty—and the fact that it gives them a good story to tell over beers—and more the psychology. “For most of my friends, it’s sort of a domination thing,” says John (not his real name), 30, a writer in New York. “[It’s] basically getting someone in a position where they’re most vulnerable. My friends enjoy that and they tell their friends they did it. But it’s not like girls are ready for it—it’s something they do when they’re really drunk.”
See what I mean about how it’s supposed to make you hate men? If I believed that all men sat around bragging about date raping with their friends, I’d hate them. Luckily, I don’t think that all men do this. So I just hate this guy and his date raping buddies.
Albert (his middle name), a good-looking 29-year-old who’s fairly well-known in the music industry, says he asks the women he dates to have anal sex with him because it raises the level of intimacy in the relationship. He doesn’t demand anal sex—especially not if it’s a one-time hookup—but he won’t commit to a woman who refuses to grant him a backstage pass. “I had a girlfriend who I was with for a long time and she wasn’t into it,” Albert says. “There was definitely a thing in the back of my head like, ‘I can’t marry her.’ How can I, knowing I can’t go to all the places I can go with her? The physicality of it, being painful or whatever, shows how comfortable the girl is with you.” Here, he pointedly stops short of romanticizing screwing a woman rectally. “Ideally, every girl is a disgusting pig who wants it,” he says. “But only with you.”
Get that? He thinks that women who want anal sex are disgusting pigs. He requires that his wife, then, be a disgusting pig who ideally will put up with painful penetration to please him. Apparently, what he needs is a woman he can safely disrespect enough to keep her around. Nice.
Straight men who are into kinky stuff on any level, pay attention. Guys like the ones described in this article are The Enemy. They value kinky acts only because they think those things degrade women and they want to see women degraded because their own weak egos depend on it. Because there are so many guys like this, it’s hard for women not to wonder if a guy wants to do kinky things so he can lose respect for you and start treating you like dirt. So women are reluctant to do a lot of stuff they might otherwise want to do—like anal sex—because all they can think is, “Is he laughing at me and thinking I’m a dirty whore because I did this? Does he think he ‘won’? Is he going to treat me like shit?” So not only are these guys assholes to women, they’re assholes to guys who are not assholes to women.
There’s evidence that some women do like anal sex…
Duh. Ideally, if that wasn’t true, then said anal sex would never happen. But because these guys he interviews seem to only like it because they perceive it as something women hate—and therefore if it happens, it shows that she’s your bitch—I imagine the idea of women really wanting it takes the fun out of it. And wouldn’t you know it?
Dawn (her middle name), a 34-year-old married woman who lives in Ohio, first tried anal sex at her husband’s suggestion, only to discover that she was much more into it than he was. “It’s better,” she says. She’d like to have it more often, but it’s currently off the table. “He’s got more hang-ups about it than I do,” Dawn says.
After the forbidden territory has been conquered, some men find they have psychological issues with the act. Even Albert, the one who won’t tie the knot without a key to the back door, admits that. “You’re thinking, ‘I don’t want to hurt her, and I don’t want shit to squirt out at me,’” he says.
Let’s all pray to the Great Cat that one day Albert asks a woman for anal sex and she pulls out her strap-on and says, “Sure baby. You first.” And when he blanches, she sighs and says that she’s going to have to move on to find her husband.
I can only imagine the ads this will bring up.
311 Responses to “Details Magazine hates men”
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“and that women are essentially restaurants where men can order off a menu”
or, y’know, women are like really restaurants with really outlandish working conditions for the chefs, wherein a man can order something that isn’t on the menu at all and then feel outraged if he doesn’t get it.
seriously, i remember as a kid, when i didn’t want to eat what my dad was cooking that night, he’d say “well sorry, kid. this isn’t Denny’s. we don’t have a menu, which means you have to eat what i cook.”
sometimes i really get the urge to say this to men, in bed.
So if the woman you ‘love’ is not willing to allow you to cause her physical pain, she’s not ‘comfortable’ with you. What a jackass.
I lived with a bunch of guys in college an had roommates in my early days - none of them would talk about their sexual experiences like this bozos. Maybe I’m just sheltered. . .
PSA unmentioned in the post: If anal hurts, you’re doing it wrong.
Update to Amanda’s PSA — If you’re healthy and anal hurts, you’re doing it wrong. (I don’t think there’s much hope for those of us with really destroyed anatomy back there.)
A guy who “demands” any kind of sex from me, first date or no, is going to get a counterdemand — that he remove his odious rapist self from my presence, stat…
Details used to be good back when it was first making the transition from being a niche-market gossip-and-lifestyle magazine aimed at gay men to being aimed at what would now be called “metrosexuals”…
These guys must really miss the days when just getting a girl to fuck you meant you didn’t have to respect her anymore and could treat her like shit because now no one else would want her either. How unfair that a girl can now sleep with you, sleep with someone else, realize how much you suck in bed, and tell all her friends so they can laugh at you and not sleep with you. Better to make sure fucking you makes a girl hate herself so much she’ll never dare to find out if there’s anything better out there.
I sure hope that image was somehow Photoshopped. If it wasn’t, whatever they paid that model, it wasn’t enough.
As I said on feministing, there is no right for anyone to demand anything. Asking is fine. Demanding is not. And I would hate to think any of these losers are getting off on domination unless the women they are with are in on the joke, so to speak.
Good call on the ads. Let’s see: anal beads, a Marilyn Chambers anal sex guide, something called “Young and Nasty”… and Monopoly 3? See, capitalism IS obscene.
He quotes Dan Savage and points out anal sex is on the rise, which is interesting but makes me angry, because the rest of the story is cruel to women and makes men look like monsters, and Dan Savage and anal sex shouldn’t really be associated with those things, since Dan Savage and anal sex are fine things, and the nastiness of the rest of this article is not.
I’ll agree that anal sex is a fine thing. I think that Savage however is profoundly overrated as an advocate for sexual liberation (re: bisexuality and oral sex.)
I’ll agree that the Details article is horrible. But then again, I sort of expect that from Details.
Eh, I don’t get the big deal with anal. I don’t even want to muck around in poop with waders on, why would I want to stick any part of my anatomy in someones rear? But, to each their own.
However, those guys are dicks, and the magazine, as most rags, paint wide strokes with their brushes for subscriptions. Not too surprising in my book.
That should be true for everything. I will not ask anything of a partner that I am not willing to do in return.
I wonder what the author thinks about santorum.
If it feels good, and nobody is hurt… jeez, who cares? If everyone is into it, go for it! I am so tired of the sexually active man=sex god, sexually active woman=slut. I don’t always like anal sex, but there have been men with whom it has been very pleasurable… and they were willing to be recipients, if I’d had a strap on available. Does that make me a slut? If it does, does that make me bad?
Oh, and just btw… I’ve only been reading this blog for a couple months, but… Amanda, you are one of the best bloggers out there. Your posts are always reasoned and thoughtful and I really enjoy reading them…. Sorry if that sounds pathetic, but it’s true.
So a bunch of guys who are so insecure about their sexlives that they “brag” about it with their buddies at the bar are interviewed by Details magazine about their sex lives, so they talk about how they always get the pornstar sex every time because they’re sexgods.
I’m sure in next month’s edition of Field and Stream we’ll see the same guys talking about how whenever they go out fishing they always catch 15′ bass… they always land a 10-point buck when they go hunting…
Journalism…? You’re soaking in it!
Dude, if you pulled out a strap-on on a guy who “demanded” anal, you’d be my hero. Having one on hand alone puts you up there. What would be really cool is if someone had like a gun rack on the headboard for sex toys.
What I cannot fathom is all of these blabbly men bragging to their friends. Huh? I’m 45 years old and have not heard males doing this since I was in high school and Rusty and Ron would bore the rest of us with their weekly report on their bet of how would lose their virginity first. Why the hell would my sexual behavior or that of my partner be any business of anyone else’s? Why, O why would I want to hear what my friends are or are not doing with their significant others? Eww.
I will make the exception that when one of my circle gets pregnant that I always ask, “how’d that happen” as a joke. And if as a joke they start to tell me, I say: “Shut up! it was a joke.”
Amanda: what a great mental image! May I add the Bandolier of AA batteries to it?
I can’t handle this. I just went off in another thread about the myth of inherent masculine “assholeness.”
And now…this? For God’s sake.
I wish the article had used their real names, so any woman whose judgment might lapse long enough to consider sleeping with one of these intellectually and morally stunted beavis-and-butthead child-men could be warned away by a Google search.
Without the benefit of a strap-on on hand, I once whipped out a pair of disposable gloves and put them on, as I asked the question “How many fingers shall I put up there?” in response to the inquiry, “So when are we gonna do anal?”
He never asked again.
This reminds me of something it took me a while to figure out about porn. No, porn is not intrinsically degrading to women. But, yes, there is a lot of porn that intends to be degrading to women. If you’re a woman, and you’re not being degraded, then that porn feels like it has failed.
No, not all men are utter pigs, but there are a lot of men out there who really hate women.
Queen of Spades: I think I love you.
Dangerous gamble, Queen of Spades… dangerous gamble.
I suppose I should elaborate, since I just realized that my comment could be construed as a vague threat against all womankind who would dare make moves for my rear entrance.
The possibility to which I intended to refer is one in which the guy says “Five, please.”
In my experience, women are more reluctant to probe my backside to allow me to probe theirs.
Enjoy delicious TMI.
There is a reason I have disposable gloves handy at bedside. It isn’t because I’m “reluctant.”
I don’t like anecdotal articles like this that try to paint a picture of men by interviewing a few shady guys at a bar. I really wonder what the selection process is for finding guys to contribute to this article. It seems like a total crapshoot. I wonder what would happen if the “random sampling” of guys for this article all happened to go to the same Mormon church.
Be careful what you wish for, I told an ex that I could take whatever he could, and lets just say that he ended up enjoying that a lot more than any other sexual activity, and we never did get around to seeing if I enjoyed anal.
and what crack did those idiots in the article crawl out of?
.
I think anal is becoming more popular because it’s featured in porn quite regularly. When they go there, I stop watching.
I’ve never asked for it; had a girlfriend who suggested it a couple of times. I obliged, but didn’t really enjoy it.
.
.
Okay, so Peter Rubin’s girlfriend won’t take his *penis up the ass and this is his attempt at subtle motivation.
Charming. And that image is Hustler-worthy.
*the assumption of course being that all men who write for Details are in some way sexually challenged.
They’d never all go to the same Mormon Church, because they’ll always be friends of the author. The only asshole I know to steer clear of from this article is Peter Rubin- and all his friends.
Well, the obvious has been handily taken care of (regarding demanding anal or any type of sex)—but I have to ask, what idiot let that one through editting and into print?
And is it the same guy who was responsible for the press release on “Charlie and the Chocolate Factory’s” box-office numbers with the headline “[Johnny] Depp’s ‘Chocolate Factory’ Has Tasty Opening”???
I didn’t think I’d ever see two headlines that manage to utilize both definitions of “anal.”
Also,
Do you live anywhere near Virginia?
Who cares?
Anyone else bored with this one?
“I don’t get the big deal with anal. I don’t even want to muck around in poop with waders on, why would I want to stick any part of my anatomy in someones rear?”
Yep, Brian is 17, tops.
Venturing into TMI territory here, but seriously. Shit does not actually live a quarter of an inch up a person’s anus. There is no shit up there. Your dick is not that big, I promise.
I have to say, and maybe i’m an odd case (though the fact that I’ve mainly been with women and used fingers and toys might be part of it), I’ve never yet actually encountered “santorum”.
Mmmm, yes, that Dan Savage is one great guy, all right…
This gem in response to a woman who was outraged at his advice to a man whose wife claimed she would let him “have sex” with her while she was asleep, but then shoved him off of her during same sleep. Savage’s suggestion? “Ambien. Next!”
What a feminist.
Not that I want to debate that particularly, tinfoil, but he was responding in good faith to a man who made it clear that he and his wife were trying to find a way to make a consensual sex fantasy work. The woman who wrote in grated on my nerves, too. He shouldn’t have snapped—that she was annoying probably doesn’t mean she wasn’t raped at some point, god knows it’s common enough—but once we start redefining consensual, thoughtfully planned out sexual encounters as “rape”, we have a problem.
There was nothing about his answer that implied that the Ambien should be slipped to the wife, either. I assumed he meant she takes it willingly. If you take drugs on purpose for certain sexual purposes, that’s on you. Surely an adult woman can make that choice for herself.
I’m with Kyra. That article was just plain fucking stupid. “Back stage pass”? “forbidden territory”?
Fucking please.
I’ve had my fair share of sexist, locker-room talk, but I’ve never been privy to the type of bullshit.
If some guido moseyed up and started talking about “back stage pass” I think we would laugh directly into his face.
Amanda, I wouldn’t get too bent out of shape. Guys can be assholes, but assholes like that are a rare breed indeed. I call them doucebags. You will know them when you see them.
Eh, it bothers me, El, because I’m a big fan of people feeling free to experiment sexually, and guys like this who take sexual experimentation as an excuse to degrade women hurt us all. They might be rare-ish douchebags, but the whole thing makes taking risks sexually a dicey maneuver—what if he thinks that you’re a no-good cumbucket in the morning? What if he starts to treat you that way? I just hate people who close off imaginations and possibility in any arena.
My inner George Carlin always tells me not to click on links to articles at mags like Details or Maxim et al, but I do, just to read teh stoopid, and man, I always regret it.
Shit like this always gets me wondering whether the author just calls up his old frat buddies and pokes around for the best bullshit story that he can throw in his article.
Plus, they’re contributing to discourse that normalizes rape, which disturbs me to no end.
I can totally picture this guy pouting because anal sex was supposed to be something his wife would put up with because she loves him, and it turns out that the bitch actually enjoys it. How is he supposed to get it up if he knows she’s actually enjoying sex?
I remember a friend telling me one time that a (male) friend had told her that he would only marry a woman who would agree to have sex with a dog.
I said, “Never, ever try to introduce me to that guy. Ever.”
You’re not bothered that he has decided, from his desk, that the woman who wrote in probably wasn’t really raped? Regardless of whether you agree that this woman’s withdrawn consent during sleep is unfair to an agreement she and her partner made previously, Savage’s answer is decidedly un-feminist, and rape-apologist to boot.
Is it just me, or does whoever staged that photo have no idea of where a woman’s vagina and anus are actually located?
Do I detect a love match?!
You’re not bothered that he has decided, from his desk, that the woman who wrote in probably wasn’t really raped?
Well, I would phrase it that I’m bothered that he took a mean swipe at her. But I could sort of see his point. I really, really hate it, as someone who’s been raped, when people use rape victims as this sort of card to play to disapprove of kinky but consensual sex acts. I suspect Dan gets that a lot. From that POV, I got his point. It is offensive to rape victims to have consensual sex redefined as rape. It minimizes the trauma of the experience and makes rape much more acceptable. That’s what he was getting at, though he phrased it very, very badly.
I really don’t think feminists should get into the right wing habit of playing “gotcha” either. Knowing damn well that he was right that a grown woman can decide for herself whether to take a sleeping pill to participate in a consensual, intimate fantasy with her husband is hardly rape, going after his snappish reply is a cheap trick. Let’s debate whether a grown woman can decide for herself what sex acts she wants to engage in, instead of playing “gotcha”.
What is the hangup about sexual pleasure? I understand some people don’t enjoy sex, and I understand it. Some people don’t enjoy anal sex, and I understand that. Some people don’t enjoy animal sex, and I am one of them, but as long as there is no force involved… I don’t get it, but oh well. I just have a hard time judging people with a particular fetish. If you like a partner that likes it up the butt, you have every right to keep looking (but not demanding) someone that likes it up the butt. If you like watching a woman taking it from a dog, then keep looking for a woman that likes to take it from a dog (because I’ve met them, though I doubt I could do it). I mean, honestly… If all parties involved agree that it is consensual, then what is the problem? I know people can be coerced, and that’s wrong… they can be convinced against their better judgement. But, I have done things I was not sure about that I liked. It is all so objective. I would not disbelieve someone that said someone else went too far, but…. I would never try to tell someone that they’re a slut because they went further than I would choose to.
Need you ask?
Monkey’s Aunt, I was waiting for someone else to point that out. The, um, train in that picture isn’t going in the woman’s anus.
Well, Bonnie, I do want to be polite.
Except that in the thread below he pissed me off to no end. In my class tonight, one student divulged that her younger sister was HIV+, from the first man she had sex with. She thought he’d been waiting as long as her. Bryan thinks she deserves death.
Another student of mine is doing research on MSMs and HIV. I’ve mentioned this, but last week we were talking about how many of his clients had been thrown off their meds because of Bush’s policies.
Bryan endorses death. I’m sick and tired of assholes like him. Let’s say I’m dating someone who’s poz, and we use condoms every time, but one of them breaks. According to Bryan, I deserve to die (and yes, I’ve date and had sex with poz men, and I’m still neg–and plan on staying that way).
Bryan has nothing of value to add to any of these conversations. He’s merely a throwback to the Ronnie and Bush-41 years of AIDS, in other words to a time when the basic idea was that those with HIV/AIDS deserve to die. Indeed, in the thread below he made the innocent/deserving victim.
As a gay man I’ve had enough of that shit. I’ll critique the fuck out of barebackers, but Bryan, he goes beyond that. He goes into an anti-human perspective. Fuck that worthless little shit. He has absolutely nothing of value to add to these conversations.
Well, Bonnie, I do want to be polite.
Except that in the thread below he pissed me off to no end. In my class tonight, one student divulged that her younger sister was HIV+, from the first man she had sex with. She thought he’d been waiting as long as her. Bryan thinks she deserves death.
Another student of mine is doing research on MSMs and HIV. I’ve mentioned this, but last week we were talking about how many of his clients had been thrown off their meds because of Bush’s policies.
Bryan endorses death. I’m sick and tired of assholes like him. Let’s say I’m dating someone who’s poz, and we use condoms every time, but one of them breaks. According to Bryan, I deserve to die (and yes, I’ve date and had sex with poz men, and I’m still neg–and plan on staying that way).
Bryan has nothing of value to add to any of these conversations. He’s merely a throwback to the Ronnie and Bush-41 years of AIDS, in other words to a time when the basic idea was that those with HIV/AIDS deserve to die. Indeed, in the thread below he made the innocent/deserving victim.
As a gay man I’ve had enough of that shit. I’ll critique the fuck out of barebackers, but Bryan, he goes beyond that. He goes into an anti-human perspective. Fuck that worthless little shit. He has absolutely nothing of value to add to these conversations.
sorry for the repeat…didn’t mean to do that, but I do despise Bryan that much.
That’s the thing… It’s all about consent, If you want to have a rape fantasy… do it, with a consensual partner. If you want… whatever! If you have a consensual partner, do it! And if that partner says stop, whether you’re about to start or about to come… stop! Damn, it’s not tough to understand. We all have fantasies… and they aren’t all PC. (And I hate that term!!!!) And we all most likely have someone out there that have a fantasy that will fulfill ours. We all tend to think everyone else’s fetish is unnatural (or un-godly). And it’s tough, as open-minded as any of us are, to let go of our prejudices or predispositions… and America is a great pace to hold on to some sort of sexual political correctness…. sex is great but gays are gross! gays are ok, but trans is disgusting! trans is ok, but a 30 year old and a 20 year old is gross! Realize… people over the age of 18 in every state are free to make their choices. Is 18 the rational age to draw the line? I dunno… I’m 34, so I won’t judge. But let’s let everyone do what they actually want, and can rationally judge they want, to do.
Because it has to be said:
“In the butt, Bob!”
We’ve certainly protested his presence often enough.
I agree with you, naturally.
Sorry if I seemed . . . terse? I’m in class myself.
Point taken, Jeff. I’m still mulling it over. He’s obviously a hateful piece of shit, but people do enjoy kicking him around. Hell, I do, since he’s so obvious a “libertarian” out of an embittered misanthropy that appears to be borne out of being rejected by all people everywhere for being such a piece of shit. But you know, some trolling drives up comments and people like to kick them around, so it’s a balance.
I haven’t had that experience either.
Any conversation about sexual experiences I have ever had with my guy friends have been extremely vague about what actually happened. No one has ever bragged about anal sex (or any other sex act). We certainly never talked about it like those bozos.
But maybe I am sheltered as well.
Eh, fuck it. I’m banning him. There’s a point where enough people I like complain that it’s silly to keep him around.
I think this post is the most appropriate use of the “sex” and “assholes” tags I have seen yet.
Hee, I was particularly happy about the tag “assholes”.
Thanks, Amanda. Maybe it’s the particular class I’m teaching right now, combined with my own history, but Bryan brings me back to the late 1980s/early 1990s. I’m sick and tired of the “People with AIDS deserve to die.” I’m fucking lucky (and oh, lord do I know it’s luck), in that I’m a 38-y.o. gay man who has yet to lose someone close to the disease (that I’m aware of). However, coming of age in that era certainly shaped who I am, and i have dated men with HIV. I think a big part of that is that such dating took place after “the cocktail.”
Bryan just brings me too close to Reagan/Fallwell/Robertson/Buchanan/Helms. He may protest, but he’s in that group. And such folks are just, well, assholes. There’s no other word that quite captures it. He’s willing to will death on people, on groups of people. I can’t describe the pain/anger that brings forth.
I apologize to my fellow Pandagonians for making this about me. In a major way, tho, it’s not, though my own writing will subvert that.
I dunno, i just got done teaching an amazingly emotionally intense class. How do I as a teacher respond to someone telling me her sister is HIV+? That’s some fucking intense shit. She knows her sister will die before her time. How do I respond to a student who deals on a daily basis with men who are dying?
If I were Bryan, I’d say they deserve it. But, I’m human and can’t.
OK, sorry again for babbling. But that fuckwit pushed one too many buttons.
what if he thinks that you’re a no-good cumbucket in the morning? What if he starts to treat you that way?
The nice thing about a lot of these guys is they’re not bright enough to know how to hide their true personalities. If they’re crowing to a magazine about how awesome it is to get women to do things they don’t like, they’re too stupid to let anyone get attached to them before they start showing their ugly, pathetic sides. Not that that’s true of all assholes, obviously.
No, I think you’re right. Granted, he strikes me as a housebound antisocial twit who hates other people for having lives, but you know what?
HE NEEDS TO TAKE PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR THAT.
I hold the strong opinion that a lot of libertarianism is driven by Nice Guys® who resent that women are permitted in a free and equal society to choose our sexual partners, because we don’t choose them. The underlying fantasy of libertarianism is this world where women don’t get to not choose the fantasizing libertarian, because he’s got the castle and the guns and it’s suck his dick or be thrown out in the snow to be even more brutally raped. Granted, I might be a tad prejudiced after having thrown off the affections of Nice Guy® libertarians in the past.
Why hate on gay men? Well, jealousy, I think. It’s weird, but I know a lot of conservative straight men who have told me that the problem with gay men is they get to have sex whenever they want. I point out that this isn’t necessarily true, but they can’t conceive of any obstacles to sex other than some sort of free-floating female prudishness.
MAJeff, I didn’t realize Bryan got under your skin that bad. To me he was just another pest/Libertarian (sorry for being redundant), but I can only speak for myself.
“Bryan just brings me too close to Reagan/Fallwell/Robertson/Buchanan/Helms. He may protest, but he’s in that group. And such folks are just, well, assholes. There’s no other word that quite captures it. He’s willing to will death on people, on groups of people. I can’t describe the pain/anger that brings forth.”
Well said. I remember well the hell those assholes spread around with their ignorant and bigoted rantings. I’m not gay, but I can imagine what the pain must be like…
Live well…
Amanda, my thanks as well. That fun ended for me long ago. Like the day he started posting.
——–
Back on topic (sort of) - my partner and I kicked around the idea several years ago of installing a lotion-type lube dispenser and “click locks” for the dildo collection above the bed. Never actually did though . . .
junk science: Nope. It’s not true of all of them, sadly.
Thanks Amanda and MikeEss,
Like I said, part of it may just be the confluence of particular circumstances. But the thread below set me off.
As I said, I’m lucky as hell. More lucky than many of the regular commenters here. But, as I was discussing with a student of mine on our walk to the train, it’s nearly impossible to come of age as a gay man during that era without internalizing certain lessons. Things like, don’t trust the state. Bryan might agree with that, but for different reasons. For us, the state was a murderer. Period.
But beyond that, the cultural politics of the era matter. Heteronormativity is a HUGE culprit. I often post to the “I hate straights” piece (and can’t wait to see what my students make of it). I don’t hate all straight people (I wouldn’t be here if I did), but that piece is really more about the way heteronormative structures impede upon personal relationships in a way that devalues queer lives. That’s something I will NOT tolerate. Queer life qua queer life is worth defending, and that’s something I’ll not stop doing.
I realize that when it comes to queer issues, I’m probably one of the more radical folks here. Even though I argue for marriage equality, I’m basically anti-marriage. Hell, I’m anti-normalization. (go read Warner/Berlant’s “Sex In Public”). But, at a core level I’m a humanist. The antithesis of what libertarians stand for.
So, thanks to those who continue to stand for, well, for humanism. I’m a poor spokesperson, but I try. As I said to Amanda in an email recently, I appreciate (deeply) this space for discourse. And I value the commenters here. I’ve learned from you, and hope that I’ve provided something as well.
But, to the Bryan’s of the world, FOAD.
Q : How many libertarians does it take to screw in a lightbulb?
A : Let the market decide!
I’m getting no ad, no ad, & the Hurricane Relief unpaid ad. Adsense is either very confused or very disturbed.
It is so nice to read comments from so many non-sexually disturbed people.
Jeff - You and I were coming of age at the very beginnings of the emergence of AIDS. I remember Reagan. My friends wore black armbands to highschool on his inauguration day.
We, you and I, were teen-agers of the love that dared not speak its name. Except in San Francisco. We had little if any overt social supports for coming out. I am thankful that my parents, parents who were raised in poverty in the South, were (are) intelligent enough to know that as I hit puberty this was just who I was going to be. I’m their daughter. They love me.
I hope for your continued health. I have enjoyed our time her in Pandagon land. While we don’t necessarily employ the same tactics re: knobs like Bryan and Hyzenthlay, we certainly have the same impulse - throw the baggage out. They have nothing useful to say. We’ve heard it all before.
And while I desire to marry my partner, I respect your viewpoint as well. My favorite uncle asks, “Why would anyone want to take part in such a patriarchal construct?” He’s 68. Great guy.
As I’ve said before, I gotcher back. And your biscuits.
-Bonnie
mod-bot got me
If you like watching a woman taking it from a dog, then keep looking for a woman that likes to take it from a dog (because I’ve met them, though I doubt I could do it).
I think you missed the point. He didn’t want a woman who likes to take it from a dog. He wanted a woman who was so desperate to please him that she would have sex with a dog to prove it. Actually enjoying sex with the dog was not only beside the point, it would have been counterproductive to his enjoyment of watching the act.
Those are two completely different things, yes? You’re not arguing that someone doing a sex act that they enjoy is the same thing as doing a sex act because they’re afraid their partner will leave them, right?
“I wish the article had used their real names, so any woman whose judgment might lapse long enough to consider sleeping with one of these intellectually and morally stunted beavis-and-butthead child-men could be warned away by a Google search.”
Betsy–Not to mention it would be great to see these pervs professionally derailed over the stuff they wrote if their boss decided to google their valued employees’ names.
It sucks that there are thousands of finance guys in LA, engineers in Chicago, and writers in New York; although it might be slightly easier to track down Albert from the info given (still almost impossible.)
So not only are these guys assholes to women, they’re assholes to guys who are not assholes to women.
Words to live by.
Radalan - exactly! LOL!
There are unfortunately, a goodly number of guys who continue to talk like the people in the article into their 30s and 40s. I am fortunate enough not to end up in such circles very often, but they are definitely out there, and I can only hope they fail to breed over the long term and die out.
The thought of someone demanding anal sex on the first date…just completely boggles my mind.
For the record, pigs are clean, intelligent, nice, and social animals.
[…] Marcotte complains that a magazine article was designed to make people hate men… then pretty much completely goes for it. […]
“What I cannot fathom is all of these blabbly men bragging to their friends. Huh? I’m 45 years old and have not heard males doing this since I was in high school…”
Yeah, about that. My own observation in high school was that guys stopped talking about how much sex they were having with whom as soon as they actually really did have sex. I’m not going to go so far as to say that all the guys interviewed in the Details article were lying to the reporter and each other. But it did read a lot like attempted self-aggrandizement. (The image’s desperately clueless implied anatomy feeds my suspicion.)
Which, yeah, makes them the kind of assholes grown up men should hate. Adolescent men too, for that matter, since it’s typically the inexperienced loudmouths who set the standards that other people then try to keep.
—
What’s *really* pathetic to me about the whole article is it’s so invested in the paradigm of women as the “no-sex” class — where men keep pushing for more and more marginal acts until she finally says no… whereupon he can say “I knew it, women really don’t like sex!” And then, to seal the deal, as in the case of 29-year-old Albert, when they find someone who says no to something they want to *marry* them! So that, of course, they can spend the rest of their lives grousing about how their wife has a lower libido. $@#$!%~@
Wonderful, wonderful post, Amanda.
figleaf
John Biles:
My mind is far more boggled by the implication that it’s OK to demand any kind of sex, ever, first date or not.
Hell, I don’t even expect a kiss on a first date.
disgusting.
vile.
very sad.
that picture is bizarre.
pigs are okay.
other creatures aren’t capable of these demented rationalizations for indulging in persistent abuse in the place of … in the place of sex, real sex, caring lovong sex where you are obsessed with your companion sex.
but that is abuse.
it is violence.
In the Politics of Experience (1967) r.d. laing defined violence as “treating another without respect for their personal destiny.”
suggesting this is accepted or tolerable is beyond my own female supremacy.
men are pretty much idiots already without making all men out to be sadistic monsters.
This one would suggest that sex is someting that is offered,not demanded.Ever.Oh,excellent thread,this one,by the way.
The Details home page is actually far worse. On the home page the article is linked to as:
“Anal Sex: The New Deal-Breaker.”
Byline: “Now that backdoor entry is commonplace, some guys demand it on the first date.”
That title and byline seems aimed at women moreso than men. The clear implication there is that if you don’t agree to anal sex on the first date you are in danger of being dumped because you are a cold, prissy bitch.
Hey ladies! If a guy asks you for sex (anal or otherwise) on a first date,reply by asking things like:”Should we buy a house inthe suburbs or live inthe city?How will we name our children?Can my mother move in with us?” And if he repies:”Er,isn’t this a bit early to…”,you say:”Well,you started it,didn’t you”
My point being that a man who expects ANY sexual gratification from you because you chose to flirt/date/wear that dress/exist is as misguided/deranged as a woman who expects a man to marry her just because he has stated somekind of sexual interest in her.And yes,while few women are that crazy,some men certainly are….
What’s up with expecting anything sexual on the first date? If a woman holds out until the second date, does that make her a prude?
Given the ignoble motivations for anal sex that have been discussed above, I feel a need to express a contrary perspective. The attraction of anal sex, as I see it, is the opportunity to cause someone intense fleshy sensual pleasure from a part of the body widely seen as naughty and dirty. It’s more the ultimate act of massage than anything domination-oriented, or about bragging to your jerkish friends.
-;-@ this rose is for Neil the Ethical Werewolf,who is totally,uterly right.
utterly,I mean!
This can’t be THAT new a trend; when my 95 year old grandmother was failing a few years ago and finally needed assistance with washing herself in her last few months, she would allow her daughter to help clean all but 2 zones, which she insisted to do herself.
She called them “possible” (vagina) and “impossible” (anus), based on her own preferences years ago. But then again, Gram was pretty darned forthright.
Okay, after I finished laughing, I reached a decision. We all cut that out, save it, and use it whenever trolls insist that Amanda Marcotte has no sense of humour.
Dawn (her middle name)
Am I the only one who read that and thought “last name…Eden?”
If a guy insits on anal sex right off the bat, I mean, before establishing he likes a vagina, I would wonder. About closets, and perhaps about how he might want to figure out how to escape from his.
Not that I care overly much, but its kinda weird thing to ask a person with a vagina, right off the bat and all, and it would make me wonder. Maybe I’m kickin’ it too old school, and variety is the spice of life, but there are certain basic principles that need to be established before I start getting creative.
Amanda, I’m not going to subtle about this, I’ve been reading about this on a couple of different blogs and you NAILED it. The others were good, but you…you nailed it in the ASS! And I liked it!(but only with you, I swear!) Does that make me a disgusting pig?
Sigh.
Reminds me of the asshole I never actually dated, thank God. We discussed sex, and I told him I’d never ever do anal. He told me about his long-distance, on-off girlfriend, who was a nice, Catholic girl in South America. She had refused to have sex, and he had told her he couldn’t have a relationship without sex, so he’d have to break up with her. “And after that, she’d do _anything_! It was amazing! But of course, I wouldn’t force you into anything you wouldn’t like…”
No, not force, but he obviously was a damned skilled emotional manipulator, and his girlfriend had probably heard enough guilt trips about her virginity to try her best to keep the man she “gave” it to.
As I’ve said elsewhere, I somehow didn’t get the memo in which the practice of anal sex had somehow turned into a national bowel movement.
I agree, turn the tables on men who want to ‘do anal’ and see how they like it. Why is anal popular? A lot of men use pornography. They soon become inured to ‘regular’ sex. One of the biggest trends in pornography now is anal sex, so they want to do it.
Rhea,
A friend of mine and I were talking recently about one of her exploits, where she got to wear the dildo and fuck the guy she was with. We were laughing because the strap wouldn’t stay on her right (didn’t fit), but she kept on a going
When talking with girlfriends about blowjobs, etc., I sound exactly like one of Margaret Cho’s gays in her stand up, “You need to stick your finger up his ass!” Generally, both the men and women are appreciative for the advice.
Oh please! It’s not a love of assholes that makes me gay, but a love of men. Sure, I’ve come to appreciate assholes, to enjoy them quite a bit, but cripes, can you be any sillier. Bodies provide pleasure. In lots of different places.
Is anyone else vaguely disturbed by the anatomy of the illustration?
Just speaking as someone who has been both “pitcher” and “catcher” in regards to anal sex. “Catching” (at least for me as a man) is one of the most intense sexual acts that I have experienced. “Pitching” in contrast was highly overrated, and I probably wouldn’t do it unless it was a major turn-on for my partner.
Well, Amanda, I guess you and I just disagree that his taking a cheap shot at a rape victim is a good defense against what you call playing “gotcha.” I have a non-existent tolerance for sexist asshattery disguised as cutesy smarm, which is how I read his response.
Also, my view is that pointing out someone’s sexism is not feminists playing “gotcha.” And my view is that he was being extremely sexist, not to mention exercising his male privilege to decide that his letter-writer probably hadn’t really been raped.
Finally, I do believe the husband in question is being a dick. If someone swats you away during sleep, when her unconscious mind is probably the part doing the swatting, that counts as “no,” in my book. He probably needs to find someone who just loves being someone’s sextoy while she’s asleep.
I probably shouldn’t admit it, I guess, but when I saw that picture with the pretty girl’s butt and the little choo-choo I laughed and laughed. You’d still have to pay me money to get me to actually read Details, though.
Ahh, of course. The obverse of “No means No.”
“Yes doesn’t always mean Yes.”
So now consent isn’t enough, there must be a certain emotional state attached to it, thus making consent forever a grey area where a woman can claim that she wasn’t enthusiastically consenting, just mundanely consenting.
This of course will be grounds to lock up her mail partner.
Female partners, well Lesbian gangs can rape young girls all they want to. They are of a Protected Class.
More than likely, he’s just watched way too much porn.
I am a heterosexual man, and I just don’t get the obsession with anal and blowjobs some men have. Not that either is a bad thing. After all, variety is indeed the spice of life, but IMHO, nothing beats regular old vaginal sex.
But maybe I’m just old fashioned.
Omg. I haven’t read the whole comment thread yet but I just have to say real quick that I happen to really like anal sex, or at least I did til I read this article. Now I’m so grossed out I think it’s gonna be a while before I ever want to do it again. and I REALLY LIKE it !!! and this is the effect this article has on me…hope nobody who’s kinda on the fence about it reads that puke. They’ll NEVER wanna go there after that.
damn, i am having major problems with formatting lately.
Bunny video in 3…2…1…
For Joseph, though, it should be a gerbil video.
errm . . . “male partner”.
In any event, I will be dating those whose first language is Spanish.
You cannot force us to Marry you.
You cannot legislate us ignoring you.
Change and be happy, or remain as you are.
Just read this and haven’t had a chance to read all the comments yet, but all I can say is “wow”. I have known many guys like the ones discussed in this article and Amanda is right. They are the enemy. “Demand” anal sex? Who the fuck do you think you are? And then, if you do get it and she likes it, you say no? Jesus, these guys are fucked up in the head. I don’t even know where to start.
Carrie: I’m sorry, we are talking up the butt. A cigarette is in order.
Charlotte: I just don’t want to be known as the “up-the-butt girl”.
Seriously, dude, what the fuck?
We got a world class misogynist here.
This of course will be grounds to lock up her mail partner.
I’m supposed to get a partner from the Post Office? I hope they haven’t raised the rates again.
It would seem that’s what Joseph plans on doing.
Queen of Spades,
No, I’m not near Virginia, and I’m married, to boot! Double whammy.
If it’s any consolation, I’m not very attractive.
In any event, I will be dating those whose first language is Spanish.
Good luck with that — if you have any illusions that Latinas are submissive in any way, you’re in for a hell of a surprise. Lorena Bobbitt was from Ecuador.
oh joseph, that’s so charming, i’m sure native spanish speakers will be ALL OVER you.
and change and be happy? what if i am happy right now? does that mean i can be a happy ball breaking bitch, and all is good with the world?
“Demand”?
Jeez. Only if she can reciprocate. (Hey, that’s what appliances are for.) Let’s see how far that suggestion flies.
And the photo’s all wrong anyway. That train is about to have Teh Perineal Seks.
And a really incomprehensible one, to boot.
Wow. It’s like some sort of idiot-zen poem. I can make neither heads nor tails of it. I love trolls for whom coherent thought is a second language.
Well, Amanda, I guess you and I just disagree that his taking a cheap shot at a rape victim is a good defense against what you call playing “gotcha.�
No, we don’t. Please reread my comment. I said he shouldn’t have done it, but that it was understandable because it’s so offensive to rape victims to have rape conflated with kinky sex. I wish he had been calmer in his retort to the woman who offended those of us who take non-consent very seriously. But I understand his anger; she was highly offensive. “Rape” is not a code word for “consensual sex that freaks me out”. It’s a very serious matter.
I wish he had phrased it better, but I understand why he was offended, and it’s because he takes rape seriously.
A grown woman can decide for herself if she wants to use drugs to create a certain sexual effect. That feminists are deciding for her against her will that she can’t because she’s being “raped” offends me, yes, as a rape victim who did not “choose” to get raped.
Hey, Joseph, I know that you have problems getting women to actually want to fuck you, but why brag about it? I mean, it’s not that hard to get sex with women who like it, is it? I guess it must be for you that you get offended at the idea that a woman should be saying, “Yes, please,” instead of, “If I lay here crying while you fuck me, will you please quit bullying me?”
Aww, the MRA’s upset because he wants to emotionally coerce women into having sex with him, and we have to go and ruin his preferred method of getting laid.
And yet somehow, he’s worried about us evul rape-calling bitches forcing marriage upon him?
That, and facials. That seems to be a recent thing.
I like anal. I haven’t done it too many times, but it’s been fine, and pain-free. I’d expected it to be painful, which is why I’d put off trying it even though it was interested, but due to a miscommunication about what I was expecting when I presented my backside to one partner, I got a little surprise. He was very apologetic about the misunderstanding, but as it had always been on the table (and we had discussed doing it, I just wasn’t sure how something THAT BIG was going to fit IN THERE), it was not a very big deal. I think it may have been helpful that I wasn’t tensing up in anticipation of something THAT BIG going IN THERE).
However, it would have been a big deal had we not previously discussed it and I had indicated my willingness, or had he brought it up and I’d refused, so he went ahead and did it anyway. And it would CERTAINLY have been a big deal if he were trying to extract some kind of concession out of me just to exercise his power.
I haven’t really gotten many requests to do it since then, and while it was nice, it wasn’t transcendent, so I haven’t really pursued it to its logical, um, end. Maybe the guys I sleep with aren’t into anal porn.
However. I *have* gotten a number of requests to allow a guy to come on my face or body. I always refuse the face. I’m not happy about the body, either, but if the relationship is right, I figure it’ll get it out of his system and I’ll sometimes say yes. It makes me very uncomfortable, because I know this is a porn thing, and it feels degrading — because what is the purpose of spilling your seed all over a woman’s body?
Well, I read the entire article and especially the part that Amanda told us to read. It is pretty sad that some guys would use kinky sex as a tool to promote misogyny. As a person who would love kinky sex, I was pretty offended at the men’s graphic detailed account of how they degraded women. And Amanda, you’re right about those men — or should I say boys — in your article being The Enemy. I have a suggestion for those immature assholes, such as Bryan: keep your mouths shut.
It is ok to ask for kinky sex. It is never ok to demand your partner to do kinky sex. Same thing for regular sex: it is ok to ask for it, but it is never ok to demand it.
Mary Winkler described in her murder trial about how demanding her husband was of sex acts she was uncomfortable with.
Back to those boys, they are dickheads.
Both the article and the picture are totally loathesome, but thank you, Amanda, for articulating something I’ve felt for awhile about guys who insist on anal sex, but haven’t really been able to put words to. As for the guys interviewed in the article who seem to think the good part about sex is bragging to your friends about it later, I’m just kinda speechless and I wonder how much of what they’re saying is actually true. Twice in my life I’ve had guys I refused to even go out with brag to their friends in explicit detail about how much and the type of sex I had with them, which made me feel really yucky and violated and really, really angry.
My apologies to the dudes at Pandagon because I know you’re not all like that, but sweet jesus did a big wave of man hating break over my head while reading that.
zuzu,
Easier to clean you up than to shampoo the carpet?
Seriously, though, people have VERY different opinions on that fluid. Some people would rather it didn’t exist anywhere, ever, some people are pretty indifferent to it, and others genuinely want to take a bath in it. Frequently in pornography, it is the latter attitude that is expressed by the receiving party, though the first is not at all uncommon. However, I’ve known men and women near both ends of the spectrum… rather more men than women enjoy it, I think
Damn, Amanda. You may have the most well thought out and healthiest view of femisinism and human sexuality that I’ve ever encountered. You have a bestseller in your future, if there’s any justice in this world. Please start finding a publishing agent ASAP. Thanks for the wonderful post.
On the subject of Dan Savage and rape, overall I do think he’s a very positive force on the topic. Here’s an interesting link:
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/SavageLove?oid=9530
While he’s clumsy in some of his responses, and I think he unintentionally hurts the feelings of a lot of women that have suffered, he does make a good overarching point about how awful rape is, and how pernicious it is to “dilute” the horror of rape by redefining dark, kinky, but nonetheless consensual sexual exploits as “rape”.
This was a compelling quote from the above link, where YNAW is a letter writer that proposed a somewhat sweeping redefinition of rape, and FR was another person who had been raped in especially horrible fashion:
A lot of men use pornography. They soon become inured to ‘regular’ sex. One of the biggest trends in pornography now is anal sex,
Sorry, did this come from a fundie blog? The argument about how perversion is the lurid and inevitable result of sexual boredom, coupled with a baseless assertion that (whatever) is a ‘trend’ in pornography sounds awfully familiar.
Zuzu–
I think the facial and cum-on-body deals are definitely porno driven, and fairly recent. It wasn’t that long ago that the issue was “does she swallow.” Now, it’s “will she let you blow your dick snot all over her face.” It’s weird how sexual tricks can be fad driven.
As for anal, I’ve never been a huge fan, but to each his own. But the idea that anal, or anything else, would be subject to “demand” is bullshit.
You cannot legislate us ignoring you.
Oh, we can only dream that you would ignore us.
Oh please! It’s not a love of assholes that makes me gay, but a love of men. Sure, I’ve come to appreciate assholes, to enjoy them quite a bit, but cripes, can you be any sillier. Bodies provide pleasure. In lots of different places.
MaJeff, did ya read the full post? I am aware of pleasure comes in many forms, and places. Thank you.
Maybe I’m just getting old, but I remember a time when men weren’t so comfortable admitting their preferences for other men and would “make do”. Spend lives “making do”. Times, they are a changing, praise freaking be, but that is where my mind would go. As opposed to thinking he was a pornified freak that would use me as a tool to massage his own ego. Strangely, I would rather a guy was closing his eyes pretending I’m male than actually using my aquiescece as proof of his sex-godliness. Why? Fuck if I know. Probably I could have some sympathy the gay guy since I’ve spent chunks of my life pretending to be something I wasn’t. The other guy just wants a prop to keep up his ego, else it falls. That I don’t understand. So a guy that hasn’t been introduced to the vaginal orifice demanding access to the anal orifice I would assume was someone that isn’t being honest with himself(IYKWIMAITYD), not some assfuck that wants me to be a dirrrty pig for him. ‘Cause I’m an optimist, not because I am a silly prude twit, completely unaware of or morally opposed to ass pleasure.
The worst part of the article the running theme that these tools think women humiliating themselves for men proves both the women’s love AND their unworthiness. What was that Offspring song? “The more you suffer, the more you really care. Right?” Christ on a cracker.
I haven’t lost so much faith in humanity that I believe these guys are the norm. I’ve been out of the dating scene for awhile, obviously.
Well, I still think we disagree. And isn’t that what makes the world go ’round?
Unless you’re Joseph, I guess.
When I came out and was sexually active, I was taught it was better to cum on a person than in them for safety reasons.
And gee, all this fuss about Dan Savage. He’s an entertainer. He’s not especially pro-feminist. He’s not really sex-positive. He says the right thing some of the time, and now and then shows how he’s a knuckle-dragging throwback other times.
While I’m sure that there are people more experienced than me here, my admittedly limited experience has been that I also haven’t encountered santorum, even after going at it pretty vigorously. There’s a reason why it’s the frothy mixture of lube and fecal matter that is sometimes the result of anal sex. (And besides, that’s why they make towels, showers and laundry. It’s not the end of the world.)
By the way, did you ever find that Mucha print of Sappho from oh-so-many threads ago? (I’m gearing up to throw a whole batch of his stuff onto the Wikimedia Commons on January 1, 2010, when his works pass into the public domain.)
On another note, was anyone else reminded of the (it’s horrifying; you’ve been warned) Tucker Max bit about anal sex? It’s got the complete disregard for women as people, the idea that you have to buy sex from them with money and shiny things, the idea that sex is something you do mainly to brag about it to your homies, and, well, pretty much a complete inversion of the idea of a decent human being.
Dude, what do you think the condom is for?
I’m not disputing that there are many, many people who like to have men come all over them, or swallow, or what have you. I’m just not one of those people. But I have been sexually-active for long enough and with enough men to have noticed that this is something that’s only been requested of me in the past three or four years.
Actually, what gets me are the ones who, when I tell them that I don’t care for the taste, texture or temperature of semen, so please give me a warning before you blow your load so I can hand-finish, will try to *argue* with me that I really must be mistaken, or it’s not so bad, or their jizz is the magic jizz that will change my perception forever, or give me tips on how to hold my tongue against the roof of my mouth so that it doesn’t shoot down the back of my throat, or just rinse out with some vodka afterwards if it bothers me.
Interestingly, they never do have an answer when I ask them how many dicks they’ve sucked that they’re such experts on the subject.
Okay, could you go back and reread that letter? The guy wrote in because his wife consented to sex while she was asleep. As in “sure, honey, you go ahead and do that, that sounds like fun.” The reason he wrote to Dan is that after obtaining her consent, he couldn’t do it, because she resisted when she was asleep, and he stopped.
Are you going to tell me that I can’t say to my boyfriend “yes, you can fuck me when I’m asleep without waking me up to ask”? How about “yeah, I know I’m really intent on staying asleep, but you can ignore me in this particular instance, unless I safeword”? These people discussed this beforehand and he stopped when she appeared to change her mind. They appear to have discussed it again afterward–the tone of his letter suggested that she is still willing to engage in this fantasy. What exactly is the problem here?
Thank you! My social circle consists of a small number of close friends (which is a polite way of saying I don’t get out much), and it’s so easy to think that everyone carries the same basic ideas that I do that there’s probably a name for the psychological principle describing it. So, the naive point of view (the blowjob principle, if you will) is that I want sex, and that making women feel bad about it is probably the worst way to get more sex. I merrily go along in my insular fashion assuming that my fellow men have done this thought experiment, and wonder why women seem so nervous about what I’ll think of them after sex.
So then I joined an athletic club, and people talk in the locker room. And I think, ah, so these are the guys who are ruining it for the rest of us.
I should clarify that I’m well aware that degradation hurts everyone, and I’m certainly not advocating that men treat women decently just because it’s in their best interests. I’m expressing surprise that even though men should treat women decently simply out of selfishness, even if they’re horrible misogynists, they don’t. The thing that struck me is that there are guys–enough of them for this to be expected behavior–who hate women more than they like sex. I mean, wow, y’know?
My wife and I have anal sex all the time, but I seriously wish she’d get a thinner strapon. Damn size queen.
More seriously, my wife and I have been married for years and never had it — mostly because her very FIRST husband way back in college, was rather endowed and took “Ow that hurts” to mean “Hurry up and finish so it can stop hurting”.
No permanent damage, but any sex act that results in several days healing when pain wasn’t the point (for you cutters, spankers, and other sadists and masochists) is not something that gets repeated.
So I don’t really ask for it, and frankly don’t really care — it’s more the whole “having sex with my wife” thing that matters, not the mechanics of what we’re doing. It’s certainly nothing I’m dying to do (done it before, not really any better than the normal way, and generally messier and more complex).
Although I have noticed something — if I have a specific fantasy, interest, or curiousity concerning something that she might be uncomfortable with, the absolute best way to approach it is to bring it up honestly, have a discussion about the hows and whys and wherefores, then drop it.
I’ve been pleasantly surprised on two or three occasions, much much later, when she expressed enthusiasm for it — mostly because I hadn’t badgered her, and she’d had time to think about it and decide if it was something she wanted to/was curious about/willing to indulge me in.
Still, I think if there was a nice dating rule that the guy took it up the ass first, just so they have an idea of what’s going on, that things would be a lot nicer all around.
The divine Mrs. F often demands anal sex from me. Does this mean I hate myself?
I have a female friend who recently worked as a consultant endocrinologist in Atlanta. She was amazed by the way many American men had a list of “hopes” as she put it, that they insisted on discussing on a first date. And her potential dates whoo never progressed to dates seemed shocked, she said, when told that Indian women need to know a man well before even “plain vanilla” is on the menu, they would become abusive, accuse her of wasting their time and brand her a lesbian.
She also said that the decent guys were great, generous, considerate, attentive and well mannered.
Well I don’t know the mag but I guess the mag knows its audience. Personally I go for mutual desire and the impulsive approach so “demands” are out of the question.
As I am of the opinion that you are ruining and destroying the U.S. and Western Civilisation with the Feminism that is displayed on this Blog, no such luck.
I won’t sit by and watch you do so, even if I am in another country, only date women that live elsewhere and don’t speak English as their first language and wouldn’t date an AW or WW if you paid me 7-figures.
My nephew won’t grow up in a world of your chosing.
Ah that canard, that homos are pedophiles.
Amanda, doesn’t Pandagon BAN posters who spout that nonsense? Must these people continue to be allowed access once they make this assertion?
Seriously, I’m with MAJeff on this issue. It has to stop. I’m tired of it.
As I am of the opinion that you are ruining and destroying the U.S. and Western Civilisation with the Feminism that is displayed on this Blog, no such luck.
I won’t sit by and watch you do so, even if I am in another country, only date women that live elsewhere and don’t speak English as their first language and wouldn’t date an AW or WW if you paid me 7-figures.
My nephew won’t grow up in a world of your chosing.
Yes they are. Glad you can appreciate that.
You just don’t get it. American Women make terrible partners, and tens of thousands of men who earn in the top 5% have given up on you. No amount of shaming, or insults, or derision will change our minds. You are done, babe.
The word is spreading on the Net, and we don’t give an eff that you think I am, or we are, ‘Mysogynists’. Anyone who doesn’t agree with everything women want in the US is a ‘Mysogynist’ and I just don’t care. What are you going to do? Have me arrested? Take my job? Get me fired? F you. It isn’t women I dislike, it is most AW with attitudes like Amanda’s and Mnem’s. People are not the same everywhere you, not even within the U.S. or US-Canada.
When you add your voice to the chorus of MSM articles of “Where are all the men…” when you are 45 and look around and wonder where all the guys are, efc, know that they are elsewhere, in milder climes with milder women who are still feminine and fun.
I don’t hate women Jeff, I just don’t associate with AW.
And you can call me a ‘world class misogynist’ all you want, but you are just wrong, and frankly I don’t give a damn.
Yeah, we’re ruining and destroying Western civilization as we know it. That’s why were here.(I find it interesting you see the U.S as seperate from the rest of Western Civilization)
Not Greed. Not selfishness. Not hatred. Not carbon emissions.
The belief that women are equal to men, that we get to make decisions for ourselves, this is what is going to bring down civilization.
And thank you for not dating us. It is impossible to say how much this is appreciated.
Ruining it for you, perhaps. All the more reason to want to succeed.
And the knowlege that tens of thousands earning the top 5% no longer wants me… it hurts Joseph. It hurts. There is no reason to destroy all of my aspirations in such a way. Even if I’m working to bring down Western Civilization, and that of the U.S.
But ya do, blanche, ya do!!
Jeff, I got caught in mod-bot last night. Don’t know if you’ve seen it today.
-B
Oh, Joseph, you can’t ignore American women, because we ignored you first. It doesn’t count when you do it in response–didn’t you learn that in kindergarten?
American women: Meh, Joseph is a dumb misogynist fuck.
Joseph: WATCH ME IGNORING YOU, AMERICAN WOMEN! YOU WILL NEVER HAVE MY MAGIC PENIS NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU BEG FOR IT!
No.
@ Grendelkhan — sorry, I’ve been procrastinating about getting out the scanner. For like a month now. But later today I have to dig out the fax machine, so I might as well kill two birds with one stone and set up both in a bit. I totally promise to actually scan & email that print a bit later this afternoon (if you’ll refresh my memory about your preferred email address).
Regarding the grand old dilemma of “what to do with the cum”: there are myriad approaches to this that don’t involve my body as a hazardous material disposal system. I want to at least see a guy ponder some of the other options (and perhaps even take my preferences into account) before settling on the default “Woman As Cum-Dumpster”.
MaJeff, he’s right.
He isn’t a “World class” misogynist. Hell, at most he’s a “State Champion” misogynist. If you want we can split the difference and give him a national title.
So should he get a medal or a trophy?
I’ll stop now.
I did, Bonnie, thanks.
Now, on to certain grilled delicacies–I’ll take salmon and asparagus
Your wish is my command! And your beverage shall be . . . ?
It’s just my username at gmail.com. And thanks, again.
Rioja Blanco
Wait, I’m confused. Joseph doesn’t associate with American women or Western Women.
But he wants to date only women whose first language is Spanish. Are there any non-western countries where Spanish is the major language?
Does Not Compute. Does Not Compute.
oh, wait, did WW mean White Women? OK, dude, if you want to troll here, you need to achieve a higher standard of clarity in your writing.
I won’t sit by and watch you do so, even if I am in another country, only date women that live elsewhere and don’t speak English as their first language and wouldn’t date an AW or WW if you paid me 7-figures.
You gotta love a guy that’s so hateful he needs to date women who don’t understand what he’s saying to even have half a chance they’d like him.
American Women make terrible partners
I’ll have you quit insulting non-American women, seriously. The very idea that non-American women have the low amounts of self-respect necessary to date a nut like you is racist and an insult to them.
But you don’t enact policies that have women equal to men, you enact policies that put women at a distinct legal and social advantage to men.
I have no problem with equality, but what we have in the U.S. is a Neo-Matriarchy that gives women legal, social and personal entitlements above and beyond those of men.
How else to explain:
-That 60% of College Grads and enrollees are women, yet women are a ‘minority’ and need AA and special programs to ‘remediate their disadvantaged status’? How can they be disadvantaged when they are a super-majority?
To inisist on the continued existence of such a policy is not equality, but female superiority
-That on the woman’s word alone, any man can be evicted from his own home. Not the mans’ word, hers, alone, is defacto proof of a crime. “I was afraid of him” is all she needs to say. Due process, innocent before proven guilty, secure in his own possessions - all gone, for men only.
Rights she has but he does not. That’s female superiority.
-Women can abandon ‘their’ children at will in the first week. Men cannot do this, and cannot stop her from abandoning the child. Just like in an abortion, the child is legally considered to be her property to dispose of as she wishes.
-That IMBRA2005 makes it nearly illegal to contact women or men in other countries? While this law is gender blind, it was enacted to protect women alone and to thwart the 45,000 men each year bringing in FW to marry. Cantwell and Marcotte would have you believe that men who find AW unsuitable mates are molestors, pervs and violent. Actually it is the opposite. They are of the upper middle class, established, and earn more than most.
Do you know how many FW brides were murdered by their husbands/bf’s/male partners in the past 15 years? 3! Domestic Women: 15,000! There was no need for IMBRA, unless AW are jealous of FW and want to shut the door on us dating overseas - and after reading emails and posts from members of the Tahiri Justice Center admit as much - it is clear that is JUST what they had in mind.
This Judgmental Opprobrium, which was part of the U.S. Female Psyche pre-1963, but at least the women agreed to honor their part of the bargain, is now being legally codified but the women are now not obligated to do anything or uphold any part of the marriage or cohabitation contract.
When I re-enter the States, I get grilled about what I was doing, with whom, and why. They ask if you had sex with women in your photos. Land of the Free, eh ladies?
You don’t approve and you want to control our behavior.
We don’t care and will do what we wish.
In case you haven’t figured it out, you’re not wanted. Nobody here’s going to stand in line and beg to be your domestic slave, surrogate mother and sexbot. Honestly, you won’t be missed. Shoo.
Anyone who reacts in standard whiny-ass titty baby fashion to the thought that they’d have to actually convince a women to live with them, and even after going to all that trouble, you still have to ask for sex, and they can just leave whenever they want to… yeah, that makes you a misogynist. The threat that you’re going to go to a culture where you’re less of a woman-hating asshole than the local standard kind of reinforces that idea.
Again, that’s “misogynists”. The English language thanks you.
Given that those articles are pretty transparent attempts to get women to desperately throw themselves at schlubs like you, I’m still fuzzy on why you seem to be showing such concern for people you hate who are trying to destroy Western Civilization and all that.
It’s also, I suppose, telling that you think slaves are “fun”.
Translation: I don’t hate women; I just hate it when I don’t own them.
Which is why you’re commenting here, because you give so little of a damn.
Who is this “we” of which you speak?
When I re-enter the States, I get grilled about what I was doing, with whom, and why. They ask if you had sex with women in your photos. Land of the Free, eh ladies?
That’s a relatively apt question when you’re returning from the Philipines and the women in your photographs are 12 year old hookers.
Don’t bother coming back — you’re not wanted. The poor women of whatever country you’re currently terrorizing don’t deserve to have to put up with you, either.
The non-American women understand me perfectly in their native tongue. No communication issues there. Their self-respect is higher than most AW, seriously.
It is no secret - these FW KNOW IT - that AW are the worst women for marriage and cohabitation on the planet, only good for girlfriends or the casual fling.
Many people everywhere know this about you.
Your continued attempts at insults, derision and character assasination aren’t going to work anymore.
My best friend go married last year. To a woman from Argentina. The two women in my office are engaged to AM. One is Filipina and the other Israeli.
Notice a trend, here? You have been outsourced.
You make terrible wives and live-in girlfriends, and AM are bailing on you in droves.
Ooh, an “Ameriskanks” guy who wants a woman who can’t get away!
How very appealing.
I do so love those dark mutterings about being outsourced. As if you could even get into the bidding.
Just breaking hearts left and right, aren’t you, Joseph?
Joseph, if you’re so determined to ignore us, why do you keep posting here? Why keep humping our legs, doggie?
It says quite a bit about you that you think those two categories are in opposition.
If you’ve been reading here, the idea isn’t that you’re a molester, a perv or violent (though you may very well be), but rather that you can’t relate to women as equals, which is why you need to import them from cultures which have conditioned them to expect beatings and rapes, so that you seem like a Nice Guy(r) in comparison, since you’ll just be demanding that she be your domestic slave, surrogate mother and sexbot. This makes you a misogynist, and you’re still a misogynist no matter how middle class, established and bucks-earning you are.
What exactly is this “bargain” you speak of? Is this just something you made up yourself? What on earth is a “cohabitation contract”?
Well, I’m about to go cry in my beer that he’s straight and off limits
Oh my god, he’s right. I couldn’t get an American man; I had to settle for a Canadian. My life is worthless! I’d better go out and get a manicure right now! I’m so unfulfilled with my foreign fiance!
Darn dentist appointment. I missed the troll.
scrolling back up, lessee…”American women suck, I don’t want you,” check…lol…it’s like these guys sit at home waiting for said American women to notice that these guys don’t want ‘em and when, amazingly, American women are not lining up in droves outside these guys’ houses begging them to want them, said guys gotta actually go searching for ‘em and begging said American women to, um, care!!! At all..? Well, for some apparently even mockery and boredom from the desired audience is better than not even being noticed by the desired audience. nuff said. Next subtopic!
I’m crying in my coffee that I’m a big giant lesbo and he’s thus off limits. Boo frickin’ hoo.
Anyone want to bet he takes sex tours to the Dominican Republic?
$10 here!
I guess I don’t think of anal sex as particularly kinky but then I wasn’t too impressed with it. I have noticed that most men who are really turned on by the idea of anal- to the point of “demanding” it or hanging their relationship on it- are attracted to it mainly because it is a taboo- the more willing the woman the less turned on by the idea most of these men are. Which I think gets to the heart of this article- sex is supposed to be “dirty” and if a woman cooperates then it isn’t dirty. Now that most women are comfortable having recreational vaginal sex or oral sex, these men turn to anal for that sense of shame that turns them on.
And am I the only one who does not consider consensual sex with animals possible? The comment about that has disturbed me the whole thread. I sort of see it like sex with children- they may participate and seem enthusiastic (to the abuser) but consent is not possible and therefore it is always rape.
Dear Joseph:
Thank you for your application to America’s Top Troll. While your whining is pitch perfect, and the ironic situation of ignoring American women by screeching to them is somewhat amusing, I’m afraid that The Nice Guy’s Women/Ameriskanks site has already cornered the “bitter man who can’t get a date” market.
However, as a consolation prize, we have a bunny video for you:
Kindest regards,
Sheelzebub
President for Life
Oh, you’re definitely not alone on that. I don’t believe that sex with animals can ever be okay for that very reason: an animal can never consent.
Joseph: What the fuck are you prattling about? Seriously, whatever hang ups you have about women (or a woman, I’m guessing), they become all too apparent in the way you discuss your thoughts about ‘American women’. I don’t know what personal experience you’re using to cloud your judgment or rational, but otherwise, get over it.
To the person who quoted Sex and the City: Put your head in the oven.
My thoughts: Details magazine. I forgot it was possible to be worse than FHM or Maxim. Second, who the hell asks for anal sex on the first date? Or even ‘asks’ for sex on the first date? Or asks for sex at all? It’s not like going to god damn baskin robbins when you’re a kid. I thought sex was a mutually consensual act, not a proposition that required a RSVP.
Hey! That’s I-5! Lemme hear ya say BINGO!
Hey! I-5! BINGO!
But Bonnie, you found a nice American girl to cohabitate with…and marry someday.
Joseph: A neo-matriarchy? Seriously? Dude, your prattling on about women’s special rights doesn’t even pass a basic critical thinking requirement. You can rationalize your misogyny as much as you like and pretend that you have “real grievances” against us uppity AWs but you aren’t fooling anyone.
Oh boo hoo some self-entitled, over-privileged rich asshats are deciding they don’t want to marry us. Oh what will we ever do now? I guess I’ll just have to settle for a husband of lesser means who thinks I’m an equal human being who can take care of myself. I know, it boggles the mind.
Huh. That’s Cultural Marxism? I’d say someone needs to go read Dialectic of Enlightenment again, but I don’t think it’d do much good.
Also:
Sweet-dear-Jebus-lord-in-a-boxing-match-with-the-Flying-Spaghetti-Monster, that’s the worst use of the Clash I’ve ever had the misfortune to witness.
Do we have a new category of troll here? Doom-saying troll? Cataclysmic troll? Eschatological troll!
Lucky-breathing-is-involuntary-because-he’s-too-stupid-to-figure-it-out-troll.
Just to get back to your initial point Joseph, consent is the basis for the legal standard for rape.
Enthusiastic participation in sexual activity is an ethical and cultural standard that we should be striving for because coercion is immoral but barring direct threats of violence is not compelling enough to be made illegal.
In a free society, ethical and moral standards are almost always higher than legal ones.
You seem to be under the impression that feminists are in it for the men and that denying us manly company will force us to see the error of our ways. Honestly it is deliciously funny.
“DF, GDL, HMO, LMM yes.”
What the fuck are these?
Countries?
Imaginary acronyms you made up in your head?
The only thing I can say about Joseph is “good riddance”. Amanda, can you get rid of this creep? He’s off topic, is a total nitwit, and is hogging the thread.
And Joseph? Just make a noise like a hoop and roll away, ok? We’re seriously not interested in your petulant threats about how how we’re all going to “get outsourced”. We’ll survive. Surprisingly enough, most US women–even most self-professed feminists–manage to find significant others with whom they’re very happy.
And most of us females–not just US females, either–would rather live alone for an entire lifetime than spend 5 minutes with you–a nervous little wanker just reeking of your fear of women.
Boo!
I think things like the Details article are fodder for the “women only want to date jerks” meme so beloved of Nice Guys ™.
Because, let’s be honest, a lot of the guys in the article are pretty much platonic ideals of jerkdom, and the rest aren’t exactly the sort of people you’d want to have to judge the human race by. And yet, at least as presented in the article, they’re quite successful with women.
(Note to any Nice Guys ™ reading: This article aside, women don’t want to date jerks. If a woman chooses a jerk over you, it’s probably because you’re also a jerk at heart, and the other jerk is at least attractive or charming or something.)
badpoetry,
I don’t think that his reaction was completely a good thing, actually. Maybe I’m missing something from the rest of the column, but saying that coercion and implied threats (unlike the the sleep/prior consent question) isn’t rape at all reinforces the idea that rape is only rape is if it was “unambiguously rape” - ie bleeding, battered, etc. - and that isn’t a good idea to promote.
Rape is lack of consent, and even threats that aren’t outright stated are still threats. They are certainly harder to prove in court - in fact may not even cross any legally enforceable line - but they are still threats and that speaks to the question of consent.
I’m certainly not going to say that Dan Savage was raped - that’s his call, he’s the one that was there and knows why he did what he did. But I don’t think he can really speak for other people in similar - but not exactly the same - situations, either.
Personally, I think that part of the problem is that “rape” does - and should - cover a wide variety of degrees of violence, but we tend to get all outraged when people use it to mean anything that doesn’t involve bruises and blood. Rape without bruises and blood may not (depending on the situation) be as traumatic as rape that does involve bruises and blood, but to say that it’s not rape makes rape about the bruises and blood and not the lack of consent.
(Sorry to use a theft analogy, but) If someone stole a few cds out of my bag, I’m not going to tell someone whose house was broken into and trashed that I know how they feel. But I’m still going to call it theft.
BUNNIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well, they’re not at my gym. Quite the vow of silence crowd.
Mexican cities, I think. DF is the usual abbreviation for “Distrito Federal,” aka Mexico City. The others are the IATA codes for Guadalajara, Hermosillo and Los Mochis, respectively.
I’m embarassed to admit that I knew two out of three of the IATA codes from memory (had to look up Los Mochis). I’m not sure whether I’m embarrassed about knowing two, or not knowing one, but either way, gah.
AND EDITH PIAF!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sheelzebub, I think I love you.
That Joseph equates societies frowning on abuse, and enacting policies to prevent it, as a method by which we try to control his behavior says something.
I don’t want to burst his ego bubble, but poor women are more than capable of lying to a guy, if it means shes gets to feed her family. Maybe he should consider that the next time he “travels abroad” for “companionship”. That girl he’s “companioning” hates him just as much as American Women, she’s just hungry.
She probably goes home and laughs and laughs.
Thankful, of course, that such a chump ass motherfucker decided to use her poverty and desperation to bolster his own sense of superiority. Wondering, of course, how American Women could let such a moron go, when fleecing him is simply a matter of pretended subservience. Very little work for the reward.
Pathetic loser.
I’m curious, have you spoken to any reporters about anal sex lately? Maybe someone named Peter?
Ah, darn it, I had to go out to lunch and missed Joseph getting banned. I suppose we’ll have to shed some tears over his Middle! Class! Man! Cock! which Earns! Plenty! now, since none of us will have the privilege of slobbering over it.
I suppose I had thought that when someone’s revulsion toward women reached that sort of toxic level, they become hermits, kind of like Dave Sim, churning out misogynist screeds or whatever. But no, apparently sometimes they import women they can feel superior to. Yecch.
Settle? SETTLE? SETTLE???
Okay, she’s definitely off the Christmas card list.
Joseph = MontyTroll?
I think I may have been painting with an overly broad brush. It only happened once or twice, but I remember that it did quite clearly. It was the jujutsu club at my college, and I feel like I’m libeling them now; I met one friend I still keep in touch with through there, and on the whole, it was composed of people who didn’t derisively talk about their conquests of the previous weekend in the locker room. We got new freshmen in every year, the vast majority of whom washed out; I’d like to blame it on them, but now I don’t remember who it was who said it. I’d also like to think that I said something about how he’d probably get laid more if he didn’t hate on women for having sex with him, but that’s almost certainly wishful thinking.
[sorry for the above double post - original disappeared w/ no mod-bot notice]
Jeff - I sure did! Oh, but it’s probably because “AM” hate “AW” so we *boo hoo hoo* had no where else to turn. Surely EM, and JM, and CM, and etc. wouldn’t want us uppity bitches.
[…] Amanda Marcotte and Jessica Valenti both have excellent proof that men’s magazine Details actually doesn’t want men or women to have sex with each other again ever. There is no other explanation for why it would run an article that makes men as a whole seem so patently awful, nor attempt to fill their heads with such horrible, horrible advice about dealing with the opposite sex. […]
Silly me, I thought it was because lesbians liked women.
HAHAHA! Great response, that.
That’s one of my biggest pet peeves. The rebuttal. You can’t just say, “No,” without the dumbass coming up with some arguments that he thinks you’ve never heard before. It’s like battling with a fucking telemarketer.
And the response to the phrase, “This is becoming uncomfortable, we need to stop,” is NOT, I repeat NOT, “I’m almost done.”
Argh. I’m getting so mad my head is ready to explode.
Yeah! I mean, I just couldn’t manage the submitted wife thing long enough to keep any Real American Guy. Instead, I have to be deliriously happy with my Canadian.
We’ll happily send you a holiday card! But the feminists brainwashed me and we don’t buy the ones that say Merry Christmas any more.
Jeebus. I’ve probably sucked more cock than most people here. Never had anyone come in my mouth…or even try…or even attempt to convince me to let them.
What the fuck is wrong with straight men?
Sheesh, Amanda: It is offensive to rape victims to have consensual sex redefined as rape. It minimizes the trauma of the experience and makes rape much more acceptable.
Of course having rape redefined as consensual sex every day in every way just doesn’t seem to be of any concern whatsoever.
Sometimes you can be very stupid.
Damn it! I was in a meeting and missed the chance to have the Joseph experience! Oh well, I’m sure someone exactly like him will show up soon.
P.S. Joseph, if you’re still reading, I’d like to praise you for hitting almost everyone of the “Ameriskanks” talking points, but also point out that you forgot to mention that we’d be all alone brining down western civ. with our cats. Remember to add the part about the cats next time, buddy.
(Stunned look.) I’m sorry bewilderness, but did I really just see that? Is your message that Amanda Marcotte is in no way whatsoever concerned about rape? Or the categorization of rape as consensual?
(Total Bambi Innocent Expression) Nothing, Jeff. According to Joseph, by definition we are the only people who have nothing wrong with us.
Oh no no no - it’s because we’re spurned SPURNED I tell you by men like Joseph who are charter members in the He-Man Woman Haters Club.
Really. I saw their memo. That’s why some women are lesbians. ‘Cuz we just cain’t get us a may-un.
;)
Sheelzebub, I think I love you.
Back atcha, MAJeff.
Yes, folks, Joseph has gone bye-bye. I have zero patience today.
Sheelzebub - Thank you.
[…] Amanda Marcotte and Jessica Valenti muster more intelligent commentary than I am able to. […]
Jeez, I go watch a few Congressional hearings and some live blogging and miss all the fun. And as a hetero male born and raised in these here USAs, AW are quite good partners and fun and stuff when treated as human beings and not as things.
Men who want foreign women are usually conservatives who want traditional women.
We don’t need or want them.
What the devil is a “traditional woman” anyways? Traditionally, women come with a body, brains and an opinion or three. Aren’t all women traditional women?
Not suprising — years ago Details had this sex columnist Anka Rakadovich — who opined that men who were into spanking women sexually in consenting relationships were no different than men who physically abuse/assault women
Then what does she do a few issues later — write an article about a professional dungeon in NYC where she wrote glowing, admirable profiles about Professional Dominatrixes!!!
I’ve solved it: Joseph is Yoda!
I can’t believe the assholes that write these magazines. What are they trying to achieve?
If they want more women to want anal, this article won’t persuade them. If I was a single girl, dating a guy, and I was curious about anal sex, reading this article would make me decide not to try anal with a partner.
No, Yoda is both much smarter and also not a misogynist.
Thank you, Sheelzebub. I’m glad that Joseph got the cybergate.
Of course having rape redefined as consensual sex every day in every way just doesn’t seem to be of any concern whatsoever.
Sometimes you can be very stupid.
Or you can be, if you think I’m arguing for that. It’s funny how the pity for rape victims that’s a big trump card flies out the window when said rape victims are disagreeing with you. What was Savage’s offense, again? That he was not sympathetic or too sympathetic to the idea that rape needs to be taken seriously? Seriously, he shot off at the mouth with admittedly offensive language because the letter writer was deeply unsympathetic to the severity of the crime of real rape. When women actively and eagerly participate in a sex act, that is not rape. It is offensive to me and it appeared it was offensive to Dan to call an active participant in a sex act a rape victim. As a real rape victim, I do not appreciate that one bit, no.
I’d just like to say that men who believe foriegn brides are inherently submissive are only fooling themselves. Our clan looks like the UN, and the “eastern” women in our extended family pretty much did precisely what any woman would do…freed from heavy-handed cultural constraints. They asserted themselves…in a big way.
Christ on a cracker, I wish people would just get over this whole somnambu-fucking trend. I think it’s one of those things, like synchronized orgasm, that can only happen by chance, when you’re not anticipating it. Also something that is just so fraught with sexual politics as to be not even worth trying to negotiate unless you are SERIOUSLY on the same page, in every regard.
I just don’t think it’s a fantasy that one can willingly coordinate. Either you are so rapturously in synch with your partner that it will randomly happen, or you’re not, and any attempt to force it will just add tension your relationship just doesn’t need.
I should definitely get my own sex advice column.
Is simultaneous orgasming really that rare? I know it depends on the partner combination, and, for certain sets of people it’s more work than it’s worth, but is it really that uncommon?
It’s a trend? Oh, fuck.
One of the best things about sex (apart from the physical sensation) is the interactive part. I love seeing my partner(’)s(’) expression(s)…hell, it’s part of how I know if he’s enjoying it or not. If he ain’t enjoying it, I’m not doing it right and need to change something. Sex for me is about getting and giving pleasure.
Christ, my celexa has made it nearly impossible for me to orgasm unless I’m masturbating. Who cares? I can still (and do) have a hell of a time providing and receiving pleasure even without that.
There must be something I’m not “getting.”
It is really rare, grendelkhan… Wow, if simultaneous orgasm is common for you and your partner, I want to have you over for dinner!!!
Oh please! It’s not a love of assholes that makes me gay, but a love of men. Sure, I’ve come to appreciate assholes, to enjoy them quite a bit, but cripes, can you be any sillier. Bodies provide pleasure. In lots of different places.
Oh, MAJeff, God of Biscuits - that is without a doubt the most healthy thing I have ever heard anyone say about sex. The fetishization of body parts has done a lot to maintain sexism, especially among men who want to think of themselves as non-sexist. Have sex with people - back to the basics!
sex is supposed to be fun, erotic, consensual, enjoyed and very in the moment. doesn’t matter what you do, so long as it’s something you both or all want.
when did adults stop playing in bed? experimenting? trusting? bonding? I’m trying to raise a 15 yr old daughter to feel good about who she is and how she feels and have a healthy respect for herself and others. eliminating hang ups and bullshit from her approach to what will one day be a huge part of her life is important to her. she’s a great kid. some day she’s going to want to share that with someone, or just celebrate as she sees fit. it’s her body, i want her to inhabit it with joy! i feel like a lone voice in a wind storm of blatent sexism and shaming. it’s refreshing to find so many people with a positive belief in female sexuality and being.
the article is belittling to both women and men. and as amanda said, if it hurts, you’re doing it wrong!
Thank you.
I’ve been in the process lately of establshing a new fuckbuddy relationship lately. The last time we were together he asked me, “So what is it you really get into?” I thought a second, and said “Enjoying the person I’m with.” (he said “Good answer.”)
It’s true though. Sometimes a night of just making out is the best thing ever. Sometimes it’s fucking like mad. In the end, though, it comes down to, as Foucault says, “bodies and pleasures.”
MAJeff, I know this isn’t really the point, but I’m still stuck on the fact that you appear to be saying gay men don’t care about coming in their partner’s mouth.
Seriously?
You mean…I mean, seriously?
Because all the men I have ever EVER dated, all the cultural tropes around this, all the casual jokes I’ve ever heard, have taught me that swallowing is like the most important thing ever, the raison d’etre of fellatio, the crowning glory of the good blowjob, the…
…It’s just a straight guy thing, huh? Well. Huh.
tee hee hee. its a good thing i have no interest in dating myself a big ol “amuricun maaaaaaaaan” then, isnt it.
dear joseph, my non waspy non asshat american live in boyfriend thanks you for avoiding women like me, it means he gets the pleasure of dating a woman like me.
i also thank you for avoiding women like me, it means i wont have to end up in prison for unspeakable violence.
can we bunny the MRA trolls with videos of women in sports and other areas the MRA’s think we have no right being in, like law and government and construction and firefighting and law enforcement and medicine? just to make their itty bitty brains hurt.
Not trying to universalize, but it’s honestly never been an issue for me.
to expand a bit, on my last comment. HIV has played a larger role in gay sexual cultures than in straight ones. The culture of gay safer sex that developed in the 1980s/90s heavily stressed the issue of body fluids. I’m not saying that swallowing, etc. ain’t an issue in gay male cultures, but I think it’s worth noting that gay male sexual cultures have been shaped by HIV in such a way that swallowing is not quite the raison d’etre for a blowjob that it might be in straight sexual cultures.
I’ve had plenty of guys refuse to let go of my penis when I came (but, as I’ve said, celexa fixed that), but I won’t have anyone come in my mouth, and it’s never been an issue.
I’ve got a bit of an ellaboration in moderation.
Wasn’t Joseph in that Harper’s piece on the sad men who travel round Russia looking for brides that they can chain to the kitchen, threaten with deportation and beat up on a whim?
I’d just like to say that men who believe foriegn brides are inherently submissive are only fooling themselves. Our clan looks like the UN, and the “eastern� women in our extended family pretty much did precisely what any woman would do…freed from heavy-handed cultural constraints. They asserted themselves…in a big way.
I’ve lurked at a forum for these men with Asian wives. They tend to be politically conservative and like women who are family-oriented, sexually inexperienced, modest, easy to please, easy to impress and definitely unaware of Western feminism. Basically women with lower standards.
Oh, Jesus, I hope this isn’t the next one coming down the pike.
Because anyone who tries to fuck with my sleep by trying to fuck me in my sleep will never sleep with me again.
Slight drift (for rainne)
Q: What’s the difference between love, true love, and showing off?
A: spitting, swallowing, and gargling.
See, not every joke says that swallowing is expected. Its implied to be ‘better’ and an expression of true love, but not necessarily normal. Though, this could be the exception to the rule.
Well, MJ, if it’s “better” or “true love,” then it’s expected, isn’t it?
…anyone who tries to fuck with my sleep by trying to fuck me in my sleep will never sleep with me again.
Anyone who fucks with my sleep by trying to fuck me in my sleep will pray for death. I *needs* my beauty rest.
I’m don’t expect ‘true love’. Love is enough, isn’t it?
Amen. A friend has been complaining recently that her dog has been face-butting her in her sleep because it’s afraid of thunderstorms. My first reaction was, “Crate him while you’re sleeping.”
Anyone who would try to fuck me in my sleep would be lucky to be crated.
I’ll settle for likes, is sexually attracted to, and enjoys the same things.
I don’t expect, rather.
Um, if this picture is supposed to symbolize anal sex, then why is the train on a collision course for the the pudenda? Wouldn’t the anus be just visible over the top of the arch? And is that skin tone supposed to look so… plastic?
My first reaction was, “Crate him while you’re sleeping.�
Then it’ll be the whining, and that’s worse.
Mj: The version I’d heard was “Good girls spit, Bad girls swallow, my kind of girl gargles.”
Not if he’s in the basement
when misogynists are all “omg! ameriskanks are such selfish hoors american men are finding women overseas, ur so skrewed,” does it ever occur to them that it goes both ways?
case in point, i was in the library the other day and this young African man sent me a note that read simply, “I like you. Do you need a husband?” or the man at the bodega who’s all, “maybe you marry my son? He’s Pakistani- that means he’s a good provider.”
and to stay on topic, demanding sex of any kind is not okay, ever.
Amanda,
You dismissed her. You justified his dismissal of her. You are arguing that once you agree to sex you don’t get to change your mind.
Ever since you insisted that the Onion piece about wife beating was oh so funny and I should get over myself, I have had a suspicion that I’m just not a fun enough feminist for your blog. This confirms it.
As a rape victim I would have thought that you would have had the good sense not to slap other rape victims in the face with this crap.
Joseph = MontyTroll?
I figured that too. Joseph is Monty after his mail-order bride dumped him for someone hotter and shorter-winded.
Because all the men I have ever EVER dated, all the cultural tropes around this, all the casual jokes I’ve ever heard, have taught me that swallowing is like the most important thing ever, the raison d’etre of fellatio, the crowning glory of the good blowjob, the…
That attitude sounds a lot like wanting to fuck a woman up the ass specifically because you know she doesn’t like it. If you can get a woman to degrade herself for you, then you must be something special.
Wow, that brings back memories. I’d almost forgotten Monty.
I’m also amazed by how many times I’m getting ads for “date Phillipina women!” I’ve got a Phillipina friend who I’m pretty sure would be pissed as hell at seeing her sisters commodified like this. Then again, what is capitalist patriarchy other than the commodification of women’s bodies? (OK, capitalism is about other forms of exploitation too, but this is one of it’s central forms)
bluefish A: Strangely enough, I generally find that it’s code for “I’m not just a misogynist, I’m also a racist fucktard.” And then my head explodes from the sheer ick-factor alone.
I work on Wall Street, and there’s a Tiffany’s going in across from the Trump Tower. They have rotating messages on their Tiffany-blue construction hut/wrapping thing that really captures that idea. I’ve seen two so far:
“Specialists in Mergers & Acquisitions”
and
“Close the Deal.”
Granted, it’s Wall Street, so it’s yuk-a-riffic with the financial insider jokes, but considering that Tiffany specializes in engagement rings. . . “acquisitions”???
I don’t know.
I think dis-envowelment is much moe entertaining, especially when they froth and foam ’bout the mandibles in the followup posts…
I demand more guinea pig videos. Er, I mean I respectfully ask for more guinea pig videos, while being respectful of those who prefer the traditional bunny.
Junk science, that is exactly why MAJeff’s statement blew me* away. I mean, I am being largely flippant, and it’s a total thread drift, but I seriously did read that statement and felt not only surprise, but then surprise at how surprised I was. My next reaction was …woa, you mean, it’s not necessarily a big-ass deal in terms of physical sensation? So that must mean…ah, crap, it’s another degradation/conquering thing? Dammit.
And I guess, much like the way that this article makes me never ever want to contemplate anal sex again despite the fact that sometimes it’s, well, pretty good - now I’m always going to have my suspicions about the coming-in-the-mouth thing, and I’ve never actually minded that**.
Although that said, MAJeff, I have to admit that in my naivety/privilege I didn’t connect the difference in norm with the whole bodily fluids/HIV thing. So that makes sense too.
*no pun intended
**Hi, I’m rainne, and I overshare
@ Zuzu, MAJeff, et al:
Yeah, the issue of couples having a “fantasy” of sex in their sleep, one member of the couple trying to initiate sex in their sleep, etc. seems to be coming up a lot lately in my universe, for whatever reason. Whether it’s an actual trend or just an odd coincedence, I’m not sure. This Dan Savage thing is not the first I’ve heard of it.
Personally, one of the most sensual experiences of my life was the one time a lover and I, who were extremely comfortable with each other, eerily mentally connected, and in those early horndog stages of the relationship, actually woke up getting each other off. We ascertained mutual consent, then continued to go at it half asleep, until at some point it just settled back into snuggling and normal sleep. Nothing like that has ever happened to me since, and I’ve pretty much chalked it up to a really cool one-off experience.
The difference, of course, is that it was mutual, and that it wasn’t one of us, completely awake, deciding it was time to fuck the other.
Just to toss my 2 cents in as a guy:
> I don’t buy Details because it appears to be a mag for assholes (so that might explain the article)
> I agree - you don’t demand sex from another person - regardless of what your religion says you can do
> I don’t have a single male friend who would brag about conniving his partner into having anal sex - or demanding it - I know those guys are out there, but I don’t have time for them - I just hope there are fewer of them than I suspect
> I don’t care if I never do this particular deed - in other words, we guys are not all obsessed with it
God, the shit you girls hafta put up with. I’d apologize for my gender, but it’s often easier to try to distance myself from it. After all, we do start the wars, perform most of the violent acts (murder, rape, armed robbery - you name it) etc.
Thankfully, there are some good guys out there, too.
when misogynists are all “omg! ameriskanks are such selfish hoors american men are finding women overseas, ur so skrewed,� does it ever occur to them that it goes both ways?
The men in the forum married to Asian women tended to be relatively well-off, politically conservative and unattractive. What they liked about the women were their traditional values, their ability to enjoy simple pleasures and the fact they weren’t materialistic. I thought to myself that’s because most of these women are poor. Women from wealthy urban areas won’t enjoy the simple pleasures of their company. Just had to offer my observations.
My spouse had an acquaintance, an aerospace engineer, who was on his third marriage and had married women from “overseas” each time. Seems that after a few years with him they stopped being so compliant, and managed to leave him. Ever the optimist, my spouse took that as a sign that he wasn’t quite as repressive as some guys who go this route (he was a workaholic, so his wife would have been on her own much of the time), and thus they managed to absorb a more egalitarian attitude from American culture and take control of their situations.
I hate to typecast, but it wouldn’t surprise me if you traced Joseph’s IP and wound up at the engineering department of a defense contractor somewhere.
That’s my favorite part. Watching her reaction. That’s why I don’t get the obsession with blowjobs some guys have. While I’d never complain about one (and the Mrs. doesn’t mind) we rarely finish that way.
As for spit, swallow, who cares? I’m done with it, she can do whatever she wants with it. Swallowing sure doesn’t feel any better.
It depends on the partners. We have found it’s rather easy for us to come at the same time if that’s what we want to do, but she’s multiorgasmic, so it’s just a matter of picking one to finish on. YMMV.
*snort*–If Joseph or any another of those sad MRA types think that getting an Asian bride means you’ll get someone who will be “submissive and demure”, boy do they have a surprise coming.
And heaven help them if they don’t provide what the wife believes is the necessary level of income. Not saying that the wives are gold-diggers–simply that there are a lot of unspoken assumptions that the wives will have about what a marriage is as well—and one very typical assumption is that the husband is “a good provider” and “will support the family.” I’ve watched at least two marriages between Japanese women and US men collapse because the women were upset with their husbands’ income generation.
As for Joseph, quit feeding the trolls, people. Sheesh.
See, I don’t see anything wrong with this, assuming it’s been discussed and prior consent has been obtained. Consent can always be withdrawn, of course, but I do not see the problem with two people giving each other implied consent within the relationship. Now, assuming implied consent is different, as would be “well, if you don’t let me fuck you while you’re asleep you’re a bad girl/boyfriend”.
Is it Ok to Demand Anal Sex and other relevant facts…
Aw snaps, news to make you blue is back. And there’s no better way to start the gravy train of depressing news going again then with an image of a train going into someone’s caboose (ha! triple entendre):
Details magazine asks the importan…
You are arguing that once you agree to sex you don’t get to change your mind.
I’m pretty sure she’s arguing that she didn’t change her mind, since every time she’s awake she affirms her consent; that what that couple is experiencing is more akin to a physical dysfunction than some kind of consent issue.
You seem to be acting like it’s her “true self” that’s rejecting sex in her sleep; I don’t see why that would necessarily be the case. The brain sleeps, too; portions of it “turn off.” My wife occasionally wakes up with no idea who I am for a few seconds before the portion of her brain involved in memory (or at least, memory of me) comes out of sleep state.
The man’s wife consented, and consented with enthusiasm. She’s being forced into “withdrawing” that consent by her body’s sleep state - not by her own volition. These people are having a problem where a sex act they both enthusiastically want to participate in is being stymied by her physical condition. The problem they’re obviously not having is one where he’s trying to rape her, and I agree with Amanda - there’s enough legitimate rape out there to deal with without “rape-izing” completely legitimate, if weird, sex.
cantabridgian poet: oh, i don’t necessarily see anything morally wrong with that, i just think it’s less likely to be successful. probably because a fully awake partner can’t intuit what part of the sleep cycle the partner is in, and is probably throwing out the same kind of sexual energy that works when both are awake. there’s a BIG difference between langorous half-asleep hand-jobs that are just an outgrowth of snuggling, and the kind of sex most people have when they’re awake. I’ve had other lovers decide that it would be really hawt to wake me up with an orgasm — I just pushed their heads away from my crotch, rolled over, and woke up my own damn self when i was good and ready. Not because i thought i was being violated, but because, seriously, i do not want an alarm clock on a weekend morning, even if it’s a cunnilingus alarm clock.
You dismissed her. You justified his dismissal of her. You are arguing that once you agree to sex you don’t get to change your mind.
No, I’m arguing that people shouldn’t use the experiences of WE RAPE VICTIMS to justify their anti-kinky agenda. Of course I’m dismissive of her; she was being an asshole. She was playing a game of “gotcha”, conflating a grown woman’s active participation in a sex act with being raped in order to take a swipe at people she thinks are weird. Do I think the Ambien thing weird? Yes. Would I do it? No. Do I think other people have a right to do it? Absolutely. Do I think that it’s beyond offensive to fling the word “rape” around to deny that people have a right to engage in consensual kinky sex? Hell yes, I’m offended.
Do I think that being accused of not taking rape seriously—when I gave up some of my mental well-being and some of my friends pushing for rape charges against someone who assaulted me—is fucking loathsome and offensive? Absolutely. I’m very rarely shaking with rage, but I am now. In fact, I’m putting down this laptop so I don’t cry.
Okay, calmed down now. I just want to point out that the nature of the threadjack only points to what I was saying in the first place, that the attacks on this Ambien thing were a game of gotcha from the beginning. Let’s see who we can get to color outside the lines on kinky sex and domination games! And let’s see if we can get them to say something rude so we can ride them about that because we didn’t really have a point in the first place! And let’s drag it into other blogs so we can maximize the people saying stuff we can declare insufficiently feminist somehow, maybe accuse them of not taking rape seriously! Gotcha is a wingnut game, and I’m sick of it.
opoponax: See, that’s the kind of thing my wife actually does like, as long as I don’t start until the sun is warm. She likes to sleep in on weekends; so long as I respect that she does like to be woken up with oral.
As for the actual topic of the post, the picture is silly and kind of funny. The article not so much. The idea of anal as a turn on because the woman feels degraded is probably what gets these freaks going all right.
Whenever the topic comes up my wife expresses her lack of interest in anal, which kind of forces me to express my lack of interest too (it’s not something I bring up, just through articles like this or reading Savage Love. He’s got the same last name as me; we Savages have to stick together). We’re kind of competitive like that or something. If she were interested I’d oblige, just like she obliges for some of the things she’s not that interested in but I am. Of course, she has said no to me, and that’s cool too. Not worth screwing up our relationship over some little fantasy an’ all (by either trying to force the issue or getting it elsewhere). Whaddya know, from a purely self-interest angle, respecting the person you sleep with every night is a good idea.
That is every bit as screamingly funny as Amanda’s sex toy gunrack, and that’s saying something.
I had one of those, but the snooze alarm wore out.
Hah, sorry I’m so late to the party, but one thing I found particularly funny about the troll’s post was:
“Cantwell and Marcotte would have you believe that men who find AW unsuitable mates are molestors, pervs and violent. Actually it is the opposite. They are of the upper middle class, established, and earn more than most.”
Like, “He can’t be violent — he’s upper middle class!” or, “What? You really think he molested that kid? Take a look at that Jaguar of his and think about what you’re saying! How preposterous!”
Gah, just everything he said was just, like… gah!
I thought Details was just trolling for outrage with a pretty silly piece. But the article making the rounds about the right wing post college frat group, Late Night Shits, er, Shots that apparently invades Georgetown bars makes me think there might be a trend. The trend, that is, towards Duke Lacrosse team behavior - cruising below the legal definition of rape, because these are, after all, gentlemen!
“The three guys sitting at the bar at Town Hall in Georgetown swear it’s a true story: A friend of theirs called a buddy in the middle of a sexual conquest, placing his cell phone out of view. When the voice mail picked up, it recorded him asking his lady, “You like that Republican cock?â€?
The guys are wearing golf shirts and drinking Miller Lites. They’ve been telling raunchy tales about what happens after dark in Georgetown, playing toward expectations. They know I’m a reporter on assignment. At first, the sordid tales of preppy hookups just make me laugh.
Then the bearded one in the middle busts out with this: “Do you like anal sex?â€? I squint. I’m confused. “Do you do anal?â€? he repeats, head bobbing with excitement. The litany continues. Do I want to take it in the ass? Have I ever taken it in the ass? My silence is taken as an affirmative and he announces that this interview will go no further unless he receives a hand job.”
Nicely, the reporter goes home and uses google:
“Later, at home, I decide to find the fellows online. It’s easy to do since these were no run-of-the-mill meatheads. All three are members of Late Night Shots, a very exclusive, invite-only social-networking Web site. The anal-sex proposition came from John Tabacco, a 25-year-old graduate of Georgetown Prep and Denison University. His friends were both graduates of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.”
Such nice boys. The type Howard Kurz is all about protecting from slander.
Late Night Shots made Details?
Yeah, I’m gonna stand by the idea that the Details editors get their story ideas, or at least the anecdotes therein, via random chats with their frat brothers.
Call me some repressive prude (I’m anything but), but my problem with anal is that it’s NOT on the rise because people are gaining healthier attitudes toward sex–it’s on the rise because of how porn is the most financially successful industry in the world and has infiltrated people’s lives by being the invisible hand that finances new technology to shove it down our throats in ever-more personal space (first it was VHS, then phones with video screens, etc.). THAT is why it is on the rise. Normalize it while their brains are being formed, and you have consumers for life. Joe Camel has nothing on this crushing industry.
That anal sex is popular in pornography because it is painful, humiliating, dehumanizing, and often mutilating for the women because there is a market for men who have fragile sociopathic egos does not even need to be mentioned. It’s obviously revolting, and that’s obviously unacceptable. But I also have a problem with the porn industry pedalling images that interfere with natural curiosity and the development of sexuality through naive trial and error. Porn isn’t liberating; it’s theft. It’s interference. It’s no Kama Sutra. It’s not educational. It’s oppressive and I can no longer escape it in America. I am not a “prude,” I never have been, but every negative sexual experience I have ever had was because of pornography, and every other woman I know with high self-esteem and a libido has experienced the same.
I have a problem with misogynist men and nice guys (who were inadvertently molded into male supremacists by porn) being so desensitized by it that the vagina is not enough. This is on heteronormative terms, but if the vagina is “too loose” to excite you, you have a problem. If a woman is more exciting to you when she is on all fours and “presenting” her anus to you, you have a problem. I don’t care if you brand me as not being open-minded, because it’s the truth.
I don’t think anyone wants to go back to the times where the sight of a partner’s bare ankle is enough to make us cream ourselves before getting started, but when the vagina is worthless as a commodity and interpersonally–forget the problem of commodifying female parts to begin with–I’m disgusted on a whole new level. I want genitals to be exciting again, back when we experimented with sexuality innocently and without Flynt-propaganda machines mind-raping us.
MAJeff (GoB): re Bryan, as a straight, 40 year-old guy, who has lost friends to AIDS (some from before the disease was known, some from bad luck, and one because the Red Cross refused to deal with the problem), my visceral reactions to Bryan are similar to yours.
I’m glad he’s gone; because trying to remember to not read him was hard… I tend to just keep going, and look up to see who said something if it tickles my fancy.
zuzu: re external ejaculation.
Some of the “frottal” ways of coming to orgasm feel different. I had a lover who wasn’t interested in penetration, so we did lots of things, but no vaginal, nor anal, sex.
That said, those are different acts from withdrawing when one comes. I don’t get that. It makes no sense to me, and seems the opposite of what I want to be doing at that point in time.
I call bullsh**, Amanda. Here is the original letter from Mr. I want to Screw My Wife While She Sleeps But She Whimpers and Turns Away And “Rescinds Her Offer” Which Makes Me Aggravated:
I am a 24-year-old male somnophiliac—that is, I’m turned on by the idea of having sex with a woman while she sleeps. So long as we have a healthy awake sex life, my wife says I can do whatever I like when she sleeps. The problem is that when I try to touch her in her sleep, she whimpers, turns away, and otherwise makes herself inaccessible. Only on two occasions has she been in a deep enough sleep—read: drunk/passed out—for me to take the liberties that she has okayed.
It’s aggravating that my wife is GGG when she’s awake, but rescinds her offer when she’s actually asleep. She is aware that she is noncooperative in her sleep, but has been unable to amend the situation. Do you know of any ways to make a person more accepting of intimacy in her sleep?
You seem to read this letter as if it came from the wife and said: “I really want to find a way to sleep through my husband having sex with me. I 100% want to do this act but can’t find a way to stay asleep!” (THAT letter might justify Savage’s response.)
But take a clearer look at this letter. It comes from the man. Many things about it made me VERY skeptical, the first time I read it, that the woman who he calls “GGG” really is into doing this sleeping sex thing at all. She turns away, I think it’s safe to say, because she genuinely doesn’t want to have sex! This man, like the scary Details-profiled men you despise, thinks he has made some kind of deal with her (”So long as we have a healthy awake sex life…”) but I would LOVE to hear her side of the story, which you and Savage credulously assume or suppose sounds just like his. The fact that he calls her “noncooperative” and finds this “aggravating” strongly suggests to me that this man has the Details mentality: he makes deals about sex and figures he’s entitled to whatever his wife has “okayed.” Just because someone knows Savage’s magic phrase “GGG” doesn’t mean that they have a fully consensual, happy kinky relationship like the kind you want to save from the assholes of Details magazine. Most of the time, assholes can manage to wring out some degree of consent from their partners — and then can easily characterize it as if their partners are way into approving the thing they never wanted in the first place, and try to refuse at every actual opportunity. I’m sorry, but the letter sounded to me like Mr. Aggravating wants to make his partner “more accepting of intimacy in her sleep” NOT in the sense of “more INTO intimacy in her sleep” but in the sense of “more compliant with my wish to rape her in her sleep, about which I’ve managed to wring some kind of vague, possibly reluctant blanket ‘okay’ from her so that I can pretend it’s not really marital rape I’m into.” Like the Details folks, he doesn’t characterize this as a kinky thing they could both share and enjoy but as “liberties” that he has gotten her “okay” to “take.” The have a deal, he believes, and he’s mad when she “rescinds her offer.”
You may read the letter differently, Amanda, but I’d bet I’m right. That’s what makes Savage’s misogynistic suggestion that the second letter-writer probably wasn’t raped so obnoxious. Savage finds it so easy to just glide over the issue of consent: as far as he’s concerned, that issue is so totally resolved when the original letter writer said his wife had “okayed” the deal he describes — sex on demand any time, any night, while she’s asleep, no matter what, no “rescind[ing] her offer” — that Savage just assumes the second letter-writer must not know the difference between consensual sex and rape. I think it’s Savage who doesn’t really understand that difference. Mr. Aggravating’s account of his deal with his wife smells very fishy to me, and without hearing the wife’s side of the story, I’d be pretty worried that pressure-to-agree-to-let-Mr.Aggravating-have-sex-with-her-any-night-he-wants will now turn into pressure-to-take-Ambien-and-get-a-little-more-”cooperative,” meaning removing her ability to actually say that TONIGHT SHE DOESN’T WANT TO HAVE SEX.
Just read the original letter in the context of our world where Details magazine is part of the landscape, and lots of men think about making deals about “taking liberties” with women in that kind of assholish way. Now can you see why it’s not so crazy to suggest that there might be rape going on here? Whether you like the definition of rape offered by the second letter writer or not, I’m sure you’d agree that it’s not crazy to read the original letter my way.
Indeed, I’m 100% sure that _some_ readers, maybe Mr. Aggravated himself, maybe not, but certainly some readers, read Savage’s “Ambien, Next!” as an invitation to slip Ambien to unsuspecting victims — not strangers at a bar or people on a first date, but partners who have consented to have sex in general — but need to be softened up a bit in order to remove their ability to say no on some particular night. (This is not what Savage meant, but can you say honestly that you believe no one will read it that way? I didn’t think so.)
If my reading of the original letter is right, I hope Mr. Aggravated’s wife retains her ability to say no, and doesn’t get pressured to kill it with drugs.
Seriously, once you start suspecting that deep in my heart I’m a rape apologist—me, the big scary feminazi—you’ve crossed into paranoia-land.
shorter cranky liberal:
1. If you have consent, chances are you’re an asshole that wrung that consent out. (Women NEVER say yes to anything kinky, right? WIVES certainly don’t! Heavens!)
2. If a man in a woman in a consensual relationship reach a sexual agreement, it’s really just thiiiiiiiiiinking that “he has made some kind of deal with her. [”Let’s have sleep sex honey!” “Okay.” (Referee blows whistle and yells “It’s not really a deal and if it is then it’s for something else. How about shoes?”)]
3. Who says that telling consenting adults what is and isn’t right in their sex lives is a conservative thing? Progressives can Know Better Than You too!
4. If a letter writer is foolish enough to show his aggravation with a sexual problem then he must really be a rapist. Everybody whose fantasies are thwarted reacts like a Vulcan.
[…] 2. Amanda on how Details magazine hates men. And women. I would say they hate women a whole lot more. Amanda is more optimistic than I am, as she seems to think that Details is insulting men by assuming that many of them get off on controlling, violating and otherwise injuring women. But as far as I can tell, a whole lot of men do get off on controlling, violating and otherwise injuring women (see: the pro-life movement; most pornography; sexual assault and intimate partner violence rates and laws around the world). Call my cynical, but I suspect that pro-feminist dudes are a distinct minority. Hence articles like “Is it OK to Demand Anal Sex?” Amanda is right on: They paint a dreary picture of how terrible men are in such vivid detail I had to pinch myself and remind myself that I know plenty of men who don’t exhibit the behavior portrayed in this article. The ostensible subject is anal sex, but it’s really more about men who see sex primarily as a way to abuse women and shore up their own egos through domination. As you can imagine from the use of the word “demandâ€?. No, it’s not really okay to “demandâ€? any sex act. The very idea of demanding in ostensibly consensual relationships between adults is loathsome. As you can imagine, the rest of the article posits that women are alternately games of “Whack-A-Moleâ€?, and men who penetrate the most orifices somehow win and that women are essentially restaurants where men can order off a menu, except you know, they don’t pay. […]
[…] First comes a hilarious masculist troll in the comments of an interesting post about anal sex. In short, feminists in America are destroying civilization because he doesn’t want to have sex with them. Or something. I don’t know, he’s an idiot. He prefers, in his own words, “women that live elsewhere and don’t speak English as their first language”. Note the word “that”, by the way. Not “who” but “that”. It’s kind of amusing. He claims, basically, that American women, or “Western Women” are annoying with their desire for, y’know, equality and independence and all that. […]
[…] Jill supports Amanda in her reading of that article on how men love to blur the line between consensual and nonconsensual sex, especially when an anus is involved. But she actually makes the things that bothered me about Marcotte’s take and makes them more explicit and more obnoxious! To wit: Amanda on how Details magazine hates men. And women. I would say they hate women a whole lot more. Amanda is more optimistic than I am, as she seems to think that Details is insulting men by assuming that many of them get off on controlling, violating and otherwise injuring women. But as far as I can tell, a whole lot of men do get off on controlling, violating and otherwise injuring women (see: the pro-life movement; most pornography; sexual assault and intimate partner violence rates and laws around the world). Call my cynical, but I suspect that pro-feminist dudes are a distinct minority. […]
I’ve lurked at a forum for these men with Asian wives. They tend to be politically conservative and like women who are family-oriented, sexually inexperienced, modest, easy to please, easy to impress and definitely unaware of Western feminism. Basically women with lower standards.
Back aways, Donna.
Oh sure, YMMV. And you’ve made me think that there are probably major differences between men actively seeking overseas brides, and earnest young army captains who get their socks knocked off by sweet and lovely young women.
I’ll never forget when my uncle finished up his last tour just prior to retirement, and came home to find that my Aunt Reiko had, on her own and entirely without my uncle’s knowledge, purchased the triplex in which they had been living. Between her own mad skills and sweat equity, she had made their family a nice chunk of change. Oh what a difference 15 years in the states, and a degree from PSU made.
So yeah, ymmv.
But take a clearer look at this letter. It comes from the man.
Oh, well then it must be bullshit!
When feminists get accused of being “man haters?” Yeah, they’re talking about you, because you’re a misandrist. I’m not saying that feminism is about man-hating; I’m saying that for you, it is. Also - DIAF.
ahunt,
Something I posted on sheezelbub’s followup post is mail order brides are not submissive.
Dan Savage is an entertainer. That is true and should be kept in mind. But. The issue of consent is tricky and complex in cases like these and the letter deserved a more nuanced answer than “Ambien. next!” Not least because you can wake up on Ambien and you can also hallucinate on Ambien– I have done both– and it’s not the best drug to recommend for such things. Ambien can also be habit-forming and can produce odd pathological behavior like eating while asleep. So, bad recommendation purely from a pharmacological perspective.
But. Here is where I am concerned about the substance of this letter/response, and where I think Savage should have been less glib: there have been a lot of women who have described situations where their male partner *does* have sex with them in their sleep, and it *is* against their will, and quite often it’s something (like anal sex) that they would not agree to when conscious. We have plenty of accounts of this, and we do only have the awake partner’s (note to Chet: NOT “the man’s,” the “awake partner’s”) assertion that it is consensual and not cajoled/coerced/conditional etc. Would it have killed Savage to say something like “I am going to take your letter at face value but this can be crossing a line unless awake consent is explicit”?
Even more to the point: if you are having sex with an unconscious partner, that partner *cannot withdraw consent during the act*. And what the awake partner is talking about is just that– explicitly removing the sleeping partner’s ability to withdraw consent, which is what she has been doing while asleep. For anyone who advocates the standard of continuous, enthusiastic consent, that fact must be taken into consideration. I respect that an adult woman can agree to take drugs as part of sex, and don’t deny her that right by any means. However, I also think that during the act itself, her unconsciousness is in some ways not consent as we would define it, because active consent implies that it can be rescinded at any time. We worry about the fact that jerkwads work hard to draw lines about “when exactly is consent non-rescindable” (ie, “‘no’ doesn’t count if there was a previous ‘yes’ so it’s perfectly OK that I finished after she said no because once in it’s the point of no return” or “well she was passed out and didn’t say no” or similar rationalizations), but here is one area where the agreement would be exactly to remove her ability to withdraw consent in the moment, and that is very gray and I for one would have appreciated it if Savage had at least acknowledged that issue.
And finally, this whole thing would not bother me so much if Savage had not, this week, responded in such a tone-deaf manner to a woman’s letter about having trouble finding a female partner for a threesome with her and her boyfriend (which she had promised to do in exchange for a threesome with her boyfriend and another male friend, and that did take place; I won’t get into how ill-advised I think such ‘deal-making’ is in sexual matters). Savage starts with “A cynical columnist might conclude that you never had any intention of honoring your promise.” WTF? (First off, here he is very clearly not taking a letter writer at her word, or at least not straight off. He managed to get a caveat in there just fine.) Her prior agreement to do something means she is now obligated under any circumstances to put out or else she’s dishonest? She can’t change her mind or be selective or go slowly? He does that a lot with the GGG stuff and it rankles. And Savage also says that she is out of line in selecting a partner who is attractive to/attracted to her rather than her boyfriend, which shows a colossal ignorance of the most common MFF-for the M’s-sake dynamic, which is that at some point the guy gets to watch two women make out etc. I mean, this woman gets to pick which woman she wants to be involved with purely because people get to pick anyone whom they are involved with, especially if it entails being naked in bed together; but especially if the scenario involves any of that bog-standard “women-kissing” stuff (which I am not dissing (personally as a woman I like that part!)). Savage does not seem even to consider that factor.
So again, a very aggressive understanding of consent, one that is much more about “you made a deal and now you have to stick with it or you are dishonest or cowardly” than “you all need to be into it and so take your time but be honest with your BF if you are having second thoughts and talk about why that might be.” His ‘no givesies-backsies’ approach to consent in that case makes me more squicky about Savage’s willingness to take the awake partner’s word in the former case without any acknowledgment whatsoever that it’s complicated terrain and that maybe the sleeping partner’s disinclination to consent in the moment is more of an issue than the letter-writer makes out.
Mail order brides are different than the average Asian woman. They are usually living in poverty.
My brother married an Asian woman. She makes a crazy salary.
Whoops! That should be “personally as a *queer* woman I like that part.”
Heh Donna…but I bet your SIL doesn’t order your brother back into the army while she threatens to go home to Japan.
Seriously, back in 1968, my aunt risked everything to escape a modernizing culture that left culturally subordinate women further behind.
Get this. They abruptly lost their firstborn, a gifted daughter, Serena, to an unusual liver disease in 1987. The community was stunned and heartbroken. Twenty years later, we’re remain angry at fate.
I still have the obituary. A beloved teacher wrote it, and she describes Serena as… quote… “a budding little feminist.”
The upshot? Just give a gal a little freedom, and she will raise feminists.
Wow. Memories. Thank you.
yugenue:
It’s always a delight to read a well-thought-out, well-argued post that makes coherent, supported arguments. You’ve made my coffee and Saturday morning more pleasurable and I thank you for it.
I think that Savage’s reaction on the 3-way deal is fired in part by his experience. I love his column and have been reading it consistently for some time. One of the most common themes in it is partners reaching deals and then backing out: “(s)he did X for me and how I won’t do Y for him/her”, with a surprising number of those letters coming from the promise-breaker looking for validation. “I broke my word. Tell me I’m right, Dan! (or) Tell him/her (s)he’s wrong to be upset!!!” kind of people. I’m not at all surprised that Savage gets a little snotty with people who do that. (And, to be very fair, what did he say after dissing such an insincere position? He stated that the assumption was that she was sincere, and took it from there.) Did he err in this case? Possibly, but it’s comprehensible. It’s why your point…
is both right and wrong: because so many of the GGG writers are very GGG when it means getting their partner to do something, and instantly screaming for space/respect/patience when they are asked to do something. Savage does that a lot with GGG simply because there are an awful lot of yes-for-me-but-not-for-thee greedheads in beds out there who come to his attention. (When I handled family law files I often felt that a promise delayed was a promise denied; it was, for many, simply a tool to avoid keeping the given word, a way of breaking a promise that could be turned against the innocent party by berating them for not allowing the promisor to fulfil a promise in a way that was comfortable or right for the promisor: the dirty secret, of course, was that it would never be right for the promisor; the conditions would never be met. For selfish people, such situation is a jewel: they get to be a selfish shit AND lay the blame, guilt and emotional burden on the wronged party. [Caveat: The dynamic was not limited to sexuality.])
I think that you put your finger exactly on it — and undermine your own point about balanced advice a tad — when you note right off that Savage is an entertainer. He gives wildly sex-positive, non-mainstream-positive, gender-and-preference-neutral sex advice; for that alone he is a pearl beyond price in a world of religious and ideological prudes, finger-waggers and soapbox bellowers. He does this in whimsical, sometimes harshly whimsical way. That’s why people write into him: because he is the most linear, bullshit-intolerant voice out there in a world full of vague nonsense-spouters. (Honestly. Who would you rather read? Dan Savage or Cary Tennis? And which of the two would you actually rely on for advice that actually resolves anything? If this threesome letter writer and her partner relied on Tennis you could picture the two of them celebrating their 70th wedding anniversary, with her whispering in his ear, “not Emma, her walker is just the wrong shade of silver … no, not Danielle, I don’t like her great-greatchanildren…”, with Tennis’ endless-patience approval.)
I’ve seen a lot more sexual good sense come out of Dan Savage than many of the qualified therapists whose reports crossed my desk at one time, especially in the matter of a partner who won’t keep sexual promises, or have sex at all. (Tangent: Many of them use the therapist as another bed-blocker, reinforcing the dynamic.) I’ve seen relationship therapists work and one of their biggest, biggest flaws is that they almost never Call Bullshit! on somebody. Savage does, with glee, abandon and wit.
I share a bit of your discomfort at deal-making in sexual relationships. Partly for the dymamics you mention, partly because that sort of deal is broken more often than it is kept. A broken promise damages a relationship, and a broken promise about intimacy damages it far worse; indeed, far worse than a simple “no!” right up front. But the ugly little fact remains: people in relationships cut deals all the time: where to go, who to see, when to talk, what to do, when to be apart, when to be together… So it it hardly a surprise that they’d cut deals about sex, too.
I know I’m repeating myself, but I really did like how cogent your post was.
I forgot to put my own little caveat in there: In this particular case I believed the letter-writer to be consciously sincere but unconsciously blocking things. She as, IMHO, , genuinely making an effort, but without realizing that she was setting up scenarios where it could never be done (false dichotomy of “my girlfriends or a hooker”, and so forth).
Would it have killed Savage to say something like “I am going to take your letter at face value but this can be crossing a line unless awake consent is explicit�?
Yeah, but if the only indication of bad faith anybody can point to on the letter-writer’s part is that he’s a man with a penis, then I don’t see that Savage has any particular responsibility to say “hey, incidentally, don’t rape your wife, please,” any more than he usually does.
He’s never been shy about calling out rape when it happens, at least not that I’ve read. Recall his advice to the woman whose boyfriend held her down for anal sex and nearly killed her (apropo to this thread.) Was he shy about calling out a rapist then? Even the poor woman couldn’t bring herself to use the word “rape.”
I’m sorry but it’s ridiculous to try to void Savage’s feminist card simply because he failed to remind a man who wasn’t raping his wife not to rape his wife.
Chet:
Who said anything about voiding Savage’s feminist card? Part of the reason that I am disappointed in these particular exchanges is that in general I like Savage and think he’s fun to read and interesting.
And about the bad faith, the point is that we only have the letter-writer’s (again, NOT the man’s) perspective, and what that letter-writer is saying is “I want to take away my partner’s ability to withdraw consent.” He also says that the partner agrees to that but as I said it’s a complicated enough issue that it deserved more nuance in the answer. I have no idea how you got from what I said to anything about feminist cards.
six-oh-seven-nine:
Yeah, WRT deal-making, it’s definitely more of an “if I ran the universe” thing. But my perspective is that there already is a “deal” going on in any GGG exchange: partner A agrees to do something that partner B wants to do and the reward is that partner B gets pleasure from that and partner A gets to share that the way that MAJeff so aptly described above (way above). So in this case, the reward for the boyfriend agreeing to the MMF threesome would have been that his girlfriend had a good time and her enjoyment would be fun for him too. And if his objections to that arrangement were enough that he would not be happy going through with it for that reason alone, then it should be something that they should talk about some more.
I just think that whether it is ‘do the dishes and I will go down on you’ or ‘do this kinky thing for me and then I will do this kinky thing for you,’ it’s needlessly complicating an already-complex part of a relationship and setting both parties up– the one who is the ‘giver,’ if giving for any reason other than ‘because it will make X happy and that makes me happy’ (and I repeat that sometimes that is not reason enough), is essentially putting a price tag of sorts on the sexual transaction. And then the ‘asker,’ in her/his turn, is stuck in a position where any second thoughts or ‘I didn’t think it would be like this’ moments are akin to betrayal of a promise.
IOW, in my perfect world, sex is part of a gift-exchange economy, not a market-exchange one.
oh, and I got so wrapped up in trying to elaborate that I forgot to say thank you. Six-oh-seven-nine, your kind words made my day!
Now I have to go get a cake for my sweetie’s birthday. Bastille Day is a pretty cool birthday, huh?
Allons ! Enfants de la Patrie !
Le jour de gloire est arrivé !
Contre nous de la tyrannie,
L’étendard sanglant est levé ! (Bis)
Entendez-vous dans les campagnes
Mugir ces féroces soldats ?
Ils viennent jusque dans vos bras
Égorger vos fils, vos compagnes.
Aux armes, citoyens !
Formez vos bataillons !
Marchons, marchons !
Qu’un sang impur…
Abreuve nos sillons !
Que veut cette horde d’esclaves,
De traîtres, de rois conjurés ?
Pour qui ces ignobles entraves,
Ces fers dès longtemps préparés ? (Bis)
Français ! Pour nous, ah ! Quel outrage !
Quels transports il doit exciter ;
C’est nous qu’on ose méditer
De rendre à l’antique esclavage !
Aux armes, citoyens !
Formez vos bataillons !
Marchons, marchons !
Qu’un sang impur…
Abreuve nos sillons !
Quoi ! Des cohortes étrangères
Feraient la loi dans nos foyers !
Quoi ! Des phalanges mercenaires
Terrasseraient nos fiers guerriers ! (Bis)
Dieu ! Nos mains seraient enchaînées !
Nos fronts sous le joug se ploieraient !
De vils despotes deviendraient
Les maîtres de nos destinées !
Aux armes, citoyens ! Etc.
Aux armes, citoyens !
Formez vos bataillons !
Marchons, marchons !
Qu’un sang impur…
Abreuve nos sillons!
Oh yeah! HAPPY BASTILLE DAY!!!!!!!!!
ahunt, my bro’s not in the army. they met at u of c business school. interesting about your aunt and niece. needless to say, my sis is the most bonafide feminist i met in my life.
Probably no one is still reading this thread, but it raises a big question. Do people on this blog (and especially, Amanda) think it would be okay for a “consenting adult” to agree to give up his/her right to say no to sex? That is, to agree to be raped, not as fantasy play (with safeword or some other exit) but for real, in the sense of “I hereby agree that you’re going to have sex with me sometime whether I want to at the time or not.”
Just as it is not even close to okay, for a long list of reasons, for an adult to agree to sell himself/herself into slavery (for real, not play), it seems to me that it is not even close to ok for an adult to agree to relinquish his/her right to withdraw consent to sex. And it’s not an idle issue. The marital exception to rape laws, which we’re only now finally getting rid of in some jurisdictions, is all about the idea that, by agreeing to marriage itself, a woman consents to all sex, making rape impossible. Many people still believe that marital rape is nonsensical for this reason. I have had long arguments with people who think that various things constitute implicit blanket consent to sex all the time — or, as I suspect Savage’s letter writer believes, that if they can make some kind of deal for speculative future consent to do something SOMETIME, that means blanket consent to do it ANY time, even if in the moment, their partner clearly doesn’t want it, as is the case with the letter writer’s sleeping wife.
To respond to the ridiculous accusation of misandry above: no one is suggesting that Savage should have been skeptical of the man’s letter because he had a penis. The reason to be skeptical is that the language in the letter (his Details-like view of “taking liberties,” the very general nature of the supposed consent to “do whatever I like when she sleeps”) suggests that his view of consent is not very “enthusiastic” or specific… and actually, sounds extremely problematic, which calls into question what he means when he says she consents to the whole thing in the first place. That’s why I’d like to hear her side of the story.
[…] Jessica, Amanda, Twisty and Violet Socks have all written about this article: Is it OK to Demand Anal Sex?. […]
[…] Jessica, Amanda, Twisty and Violet Socks have all written about this article: Is it OK to Demand Anal Sex?. […]
cranky liberal
Read the damned letter. They had repeated discussions, repeated agreements and she had provided repeated consent. There is no “speculative” about it. It is your statements are speculative and unsustainable. If two consenting adults agree to something and run into technical problems, who the tapdancing fuck are you to conclude that since you “suspect” something then half of that couple is a rapist?
In my sleep I once snarled like a dog (bared fangs and all) at a man I had to share a bed with. By your asshat reasoning that means I’m a carnivorous, fur-covered quadraped, that I really didn’t want to share the covers because the surreal realm of sleep is our only real reality.
And you have no grounds to call the accusation of misandry (made by, I believe, Chet) ridiculous. The dunce cap fits and you have to wear it.
So, he’s a man, and he has reached consensual agreements with his partner but that only means that he thinks he has, and you think you know his marriage better than him and so he’s a liar and a rapist; he’s “entitled” and “scary”. Why? Because he’s trying to make a consensual situation work and seeks advice in doing it. Did he rape her? No. Did he move past her unconscious acts and have sex with her anyway? No. He sought advice on how to make a marital agreement work. You, you prat, you on the other hand won’t debate others, won’t address their points, repeatedly make the same baseless, nasty assertions about the letter-writer over and over again, AND streamroll over the near-tears of the rape-victim moderator to make your point. But when Chet (I believe) calls bullshit on you you think it ludicrous.
… except you and that’s the point.In case you missed part of Amanda’s message, let me rephrase it for you:
There are enough rapists in the world — and the damage they do horrid enough — that we can’t and shouldn’t waste time calling non-rapists rapists. Doing so demeans decent men, and hurts rape victims. I notice that in your eagerness to make your point you don’t seem to give a flying fuck about hurting Amanda. Just blew right by that. What were the first words out of you after that? “I call bullsh**, Amanda.” REAL sensitive, asswipe. REAL compassionate about the costs of rape.
Consent is a conscious act. Can’t you see the implications of your position, or are you that stupid? (That’s a rhetorical question, by the way; you’ve made it clear that you are that stupid.) If an unconscious, reflexive act can be held to void a position taken while conscious, then a woman who has clearly stated her lack of consent whilst awake cannot state later that she was raped while asleep if her unconscious conduct showed sleeping assent. After all, her unconscious acts showing consent govern, according to your reasoning.
“cranky liberal” indeed. I think you are a sanctimonious prig with zero empathy posing as a person sensitive to the issues of rape. No wonder you’re cranky: pretending to be a liberal when you really don’t care what others think or feel or give a damn about what consenting adults agree to (because you know better!) must be a considerable strain on a person who is emotionally and intellectually underdeveloped.
[…] Details magazine, of which I subscribed to as a teen in order to learn more about ‘men’, published an article about anal sex. The feminists got in an uproar. Why? Because the article wasn’t about anal sex, it was about rape. From Feministe: “Jessica, Amanda, Twisty [Twisty has the best picture accompanying the article] and Violet Socks have all written about this article: Is it OK to Demand Anal Sex?. …virtually every respondent noted for starters, when is it ever OK to demand any kind of sex? (The title mysteriously changed to Is Anal Sex a Deal-Breaker?)” […]
six-oh-seven-nine (GLECotMF):
Thank you, I’d been trying to think of something more cogent that just pointing out the guy had been accepting her removal of consent, and that, prima facie that moves him out of the rapist category.
Cranky Liberal: Can someone remove consent… sort of. It’s a question of direction.
It might be better viewed as, consenting to allow sex (inside whatever categories; the consent need not be absolute) at any time.
I know people who have done this; it’s mostly a dominant/submissive relationship. Not my thing, and I have some deep concerns about it, but so long as that blanket consent is revocable then I think it’s a valid consent.
For all the relationships like this which I’ve been aware of, it was. The consent invoved taking a token [yes, often a collar, or some symbol representing one; that “slave” aspect of it is what bothers me, but I digress] and removing/returning the token was the equivalant of a “safe word”.
Terry Karney:
GLECotMF?
six-oh-seven-nine:
giant lion-eating chimp of the magic forest
Just as MAJeff is (GoB).
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhh…
My new tag was so new that I quite forgot. I’ll have to put it back on.
quadraped? quaduped
God, I hate spelling mistakes.
“I agree, turn the tables on men who want to ‘do anal’ and see how they like it.”
I consider the above quote silly for two main reasons:
1. Performing a sex act simply for “revenge fairness” is rather pathetic;
2. Men have prostate glands, so if done right it would feel good (as the women who own strap-ons and have latex gloves by their besides attested to, not to mention the men who piped up about being pegged and fingered by their wives).
Frankly, the Details article is just sophomoric and intended to shock. The same magazine had an expose on the secret world of “mandingo parties.” The picture is amusing (come on, it is) but the men are clearly selected for their crude viewpoints. It should be obvious most men don’t think that way (even most of the ones who make jokes suggesting that they seriously do). So raging at the article, while clear-eyed, is not so interesting.
What I found interesting was the frank discussion amongst commenters here about female-to-male anal play that seemed to arise out of nowhere (uh, that isn’t what’s in the article!). I didn’t expect that wrinkle in the discourse. (I also didn’t take Amanda’s gun rack comment as a joke. But maybe that’s just me. Are you *really* saying a gun rack of sex toys isn’t cool?) Not to advocate for a standalone thread on the topic (though that’s not a bad idea), but that digression from what else was discussed here was more enjoyable than the segue into sleep rape and the troll saying whatever it was I skimmed over.
In any event, the “How would men like it!” argument is always bothersome because it presumes men don’t like anal play and that women don’t like being penetrated anally, either. Where is the empirical evidence for that? It’s probably the case that most people like anal play to varying degrees. I mean, people don’t end up in the hospital with shit stuck in their ass by accident. Why perpetuate that silly myth just to strike down a straw (heterosexual) man?
Oh, yeah. And it also assumes that women don’t like to penetrate men and that any man who penetrates a woman in the rear is a selfish pig. I don’t see any empirical evidence for that, either.
[…] As Amanda at Pandangon puts it, the article (and much of the backlash, I’d add) “reinforce[s] the idea that women who have anal sex are dirty and have no self-respect and should be treated like pincushions.” […]