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	<title>Comments on: Women are to blame for everything, including and especially male abuse towards them</title>
	<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/07/women-are-to-blame-for-everything-including-and-especially-male-abuse-towards-them/</link>
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	<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:02:47 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Feminist Critics</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/07/women-are-to-blame-for-everything-including-and-especially-male-abuse-towards-them/#comment-403282</link>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 May 2007 01:40:35 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/07/women-are-to-blame-for-everything-including-and-especially-male-abuse-towards-them/#comment-403282</guid>
					<description>[...] I agree with these final remarks 100%. Via a serendipitous mislink from Pandagon to a crosspost on Hoyden about Town [back]A cursory search turned up this study in which advice offered by the researchers proved to be ineffective in reducing rates of sexual victimisation, however I can&amp;#8217;t tell from the abstract how closely the researchers&amp;#8217; advice matched the &amp;#8216;traditional&amp;#8217; advice under discussion here. [back] [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[&#8230;] I agree with these final remarks 100%. Via a serendipitous mislink from Pandagon to a crosspost on Hoyden about Town [back]A cursory search turned up this study in which advice offered by the researchers proved to be ineffective in reducing rates of sexual victimisation, however I can&#8217;t tell from the abstract how closely the researchers&#8217; advice matched the &#8216;traditional&#8217; advice under discussion here. [back] [&#8230;]
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		<title>by: Ed</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/07/women-are-to-blame-for-everything-including-and-especially-male-abuse-towards-them/#comment-403203</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 20:12:12 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/07/women-are-to-blame-for-everything-including-and-especially-male-abuse-towards-them/#comment-403203</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;&quot;As an intellectual exercise, try to rewrite that ad. Keep the â€śyou have to watch out for evil fuckersâ€? moral, and make it NOT blame the victim. I donâ€™t think it can be done. I think using a boy as the lead character wouldâ€™ve been better as it wouldâ€™ve stripped away side issues leaving the point of the ad standing clear.&quot;&lt;/i&gt;

You actually have two possible messages here, or at least two ways to present the same message. You have &quot;watch out for evil fuckers&quot; and you have &quot;if you want information to remain private, don't post it on the internet.  The only good inoffensive way to present either one is by using a montage with a variety of people, female and male, of several ethnic backgrounds.

If your concern is to remind young women that there are creepy fuckers out there and you don't care whom you offend, you could easily rewrite the &quot;watch out of evil fuckers&quot; one by using another stereotype.

&lt;i&gt;(Fade in) Overweight, middle-aged guy sitting at a computer, only lighting is from the monitor, guy is clicking through [mock-up myspace analog site to avoid lawsuit for using actual myspace site].
Announcer: 'Hundereds of millions of people visit online communities every day.'
(Pan in to screen as guy clicks link to pg/pg-13 photo of teenager; slowly pan out to sillouette of guy in light from monitor, back to camera, moving arm as if masturbating)
Announcer: 'Do you know who's reading your blog?'&lt;/i&gt;
The teenager in the pickture can be of either sex, depending on who is your target for the ad campaign.
For the other 'don't post private info on the internet' version of the ad, show a person or several people uploading pictures of a social security card, drivers licence, birth cirtificate, credit card, etc.  &lt;i&gt;(choose one: &quot;Announcer:  You wouldn't post these pictures on the internet, why would you post these?&quot;, and roll shots of suggestive pictures. OR &quot;Announcer:  You wouldn't post these pictures on the internet, why would you post any other private information?&quot;)&lt;/i&gt;
As a side note, I don't think we've examined the very real (and perhaps more dangerous, from a culteral standpoint) posibility that the Ad Council isn't pushing a conscious agenda.  That they are in all seriousness and with only the very best of intentions trying to protect young women from takign actions which will lead to their persecution and harrassment in our society without realizing that they are reinforcing the harrassing behavior by absolving the harrassers of blame.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>&#8220;As an intellectual exercise, try to rewrite that ad. Keep the â€śyou have to watch out for evil fuckersâ€? moral, and make it NOT blame the victim. I donâ€™t think it can be done. I think using a boy as the lead character wouldâ€™ve been better as it wouldâ€™ve stripped away side issues leaving the point of the ad standing clear.&#8221;</i></p>
	<p>You actually have two possible messages here, or at least two ways to present the same message. You have &#8220;watch out for evil fuckers&#8221; and you have &#8220;if you want information to remain private, don&#8217;t post it on the internet.  The only good inoffensive way to present either one is by using a montage with a variety of people, female and male, of several ethnic backgrounds.</p>
	<p>If your concern is to remind young women that there are creepy fuckers out there and you don&#8217;t care whom you offend, you could easily rewrite the &#8220;watch out of evil fuckers&#8221; one by using another stereotype.</p>
	<p><i>(Fade in) Overweight, middle-aged guy sitting at a computer, only lighting is from the monitor, guy is clicking through [mock-up myspace analog site to avoid lawsuit for using actual myspace site].<br />
Announcer: &#8216;Hundereds of millions of people visit online communities every day.&#8217;<br />
(Pan in to screen as guy clicks link to pg/pg-13 photo of teenager; slowly pan out to sillouette of guy in light from monitor, back to camera, moving arm as if masturbating)<br />
Announcer: &#8216;Do you know who&#8217;s reading your blog?&#8217;</i><br />
The teenager in the pickture can be of either sex, depending on who is your target for the ad campaign.<br />
For the other &#8216;don&#8217;t post private info on the internet&#8217; version of the ad, show a person or several people uploading pictures of a social security card, drivers licence, birth cirtificate, credit card, etc.  <i>(choose one: &#8220;Announcer:  You wouldn&#8217;t post these pictures on the internet, why would you post these?&#8221;, and roll shots of suggestive pictures. OR &#8220;Announcer:  You wouldn&#8217;t post these pictures on the internet, why would you post any other private information?&#8221;)</i><br />
As a side note, I don&#8217;t think we&#8217;ve examined the very real (and perhaps more dangerous, from a culteral standpoint) posibility that the Ad Council isn&#8217;t pushing a conscious agenda.  That they are in all seriousness and with only the very best of intentions trying to protect young women from takign actions which will lead to their persecution and harrassment in our society without realizing that they are reinforcing the harrassing behavior by absolving the harrassers of blame.
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		<title>by: Life in the Pink &raquo; Blog Archive &raquo; Links! From the Internet! For You!</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/07/women-are-to-blame-for-everything-including-and-especially-male-abuse-towards-them/#comment-402845</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 May 2007 03:09:47 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/07/women-are-to-blame-for-everything-including-and-especially-male-abuse-towards-them/#comment-402845</guid>
					<description>[...] 1. Your angry feminist link for the day. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[&#8230;] 1. Your angry feminist link for the day. [&#8230;]
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		<title>by: slythwolf</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/07/women-are-to-blame-for-everything-including-and-especially-male-abuse-towards-them/#comment-402079</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 19:30:09 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/07/women-are-to-blame-for-everything-including-and-especially-male-abuse-towards-them/#comment-402079</guid>
					<description>From the article Anorak posted (or posted an excerpt from, possibly, but that looked like a whole article to me):

&lt;i&gt;The woman was pulled into the car, which took off at high speed to another part of the city where she was sexually attacked, and then dumped.&lt;/i&gt;

I fix:

&quot;The two men pulled the woman into the car; the men took off at high speed to another part of the city where they (still the men) sexually attacked &lt;b&gt;raped&lt;/b&gt; her and then dumped her.&quot;

Interesting that the article's author even holds &lt;b&gt;the goddamn car&lt;/b&gt; more responsible than the men who did the raping.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>From the article Anorak posted (or posted an excerpt from, possibly, but that looked like a whole article to me):</p>
	<p><i>The woman was pulled into the car, which took off at high speed to another part of the city where she was sexually attacked, and then dumped.</i></p>
	<p>I fix:</p>
	<p>&#8220;The two men pulled the woman into the car; the men took off at high speed to another part of the city where they (still the men) sexually attacked <b>raped</b> her and then dumped her.&#8221;</p>
	<p>Interesting that the article&#8217;s author even holds <b>the goddamn car</b> more responsible than the men who did the raping.
</p>
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		<title>by: Rei</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/07/women-are-to-blame-for-everything-including-and-especially-male-abuse-towards-them/#comment-401771</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 11:24:36 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/07/women-are-to-blame-for-everything-including-and-especially-male-abuse-towards-them/#comment-401771</guid>
					<description>Consider the police blotter section of any newspaper.

1. An unidentified man raped a woman between 12am and 1am last night in the Edge Park area.

Or

2. A woman was raped between 12am and 1am last night in the Edge Park area.


In what way does sentence 1 blame all men?  What's so terrifically offensive about pointing out that, although sentence 1 follows journalistic and stylistic rules more closely than sentence 2, most articles about this hypothetical situation would lead with sentence 2?  And that this is true to the extent that sentence 1 seems a little odd?

Compare:

1. An unidentified man robbed three customers waiting to use an Edge Park ATM at 10:45 last night.

2. Three people were robbed while waiting to use an Edge Park ATM at 10:45 last night.

It doesn't feel quite the same to me for some reason.  And no-one would say that robbery sentence 1 makes all men feel like thieves.

Phoenician, you are WAY touchy about this issue.  Perhaps it's because police blotter reporters the world over have been scrupulously sparing your feelings.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Consider the police blotter section of any newspaper.</p>
	<p>1. An unidentified man raped a woman between 12am and 1am last night in the Edge Park area.</p>
	<p>Or</p>
	<p>2. A woman was raped between 12am and 1am last night in the Edge Park area.</p>
	<p>In what way does sentence 1 blame all men?  What&#8217;s so terrifically offensive about pointing out that, although sentence 1 follows journalistic and stylistic rules more closely than sentence 2, most articles about this hypothetical situation would lead with sentence 2?  And that this is true to the extent that sentence 1 seems a little odd?</p>
	<p>Compare:</p>
	<p>1. An unidentified man robbed three customers waiting to use an Edge Park ATM at 10:45 last night.</p>
	<p>2. Three people were robbed while waiting to use an Edge Park ATM at 10:45 last night.</p>
	<p>It doesn&#8217;t feel quite the same to me for some reason.  And no-one would say that robbery sentence 1 makes all men feel like thieves.</p>
	<p>Phoenician, you are WAY touchy about this issue.  Perhaps it&#8217;s because police blotter reporters the world over have been scrupulously sparing your feelings.
</p>
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		<title>by: Labyrus</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/07/women-are-to-blame-for-everything-including-and-especially-male-abuse-towards-them/#comment-401588</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 May 2007 00:50:04 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/07/women-are-to-blame-for-everything-including-and-especially-male-abuse-towards-them/#comment-401588</guid>
					<description>Myth, don't put fucking words in my mouth. Either actually read my posts or don't respond to them. I think I was pretty clearly not saying what you think I was saying.

Johana - I think you're dead wrong because you're basically implying that rape can be stopped without men's involvement - by making women say &quot;no&quot; more forcefully or more or whatever. That's victim-blaming. It's victim-blaming surrounded by feminist rhetoric, but it's victim-blaming nonetheless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Myth, don&#8217;t put fucking words in my mouth. Either actually read my posts or don&#8217;t respond to them. I think I was pretty clearly not saying what you think I was saying.</p>
	<p>Johana - I think you&#8217;re dead wrong because you&#8217;re basically implying that rape can be stopped without men&#8217;s involvement - by making women say &#8220;no&#8221; more forcefully or more or whatever. That&#8217;s victim-blaming. It&#8217;s victim-blaming surrounded by feminist rhetoric, but it&#8217;s victim-blaming nonetheless.
</p>
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		<title>by: mythago</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/07/women-are-to-blame-for-everything-including-and-especially-male-abuse-towards-them/#comment-401527</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2007 22:03:46 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/07/women-are-to-blame-for-everything-including-and-especially-male-abuse-towards-them/#comment-401527</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;So in other words you donâ€™t actually care about changing the attitude of the people who actually commit rape? &lt;/i&gt;

Why do you think rapists' attitudes will be changed by saying &quot;Don't say bad things about men, you might hurt some poor man's feeeeeeelings&quot;? Do you think rapists and their Walter Mitty buddies will turn into devotees of feminist theory if only we are careful not to mention that most rapes are committed by men?

RM, you know what, I'm white, and I don't stick out my lower lip and stomp my feet when somebody points out that, in the US, whites have an overwhelming amount of race privilege and most race-based hate crimes are committed by whites. I don't say that those foolish black people are &lt;i&gt;alienating&lt;/i&gt; well-meaning white people by pointing out white racism. I don't try to work in Personal Issues about Islam. I don't jump up and down shouting that nobody has mentioned that some blacks are racist too.

What was that Malcolm X said about throwing rocks at a pack of dogs?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i>So in other words you donâ€™t actually care about changing the attitude of the people who actually commit rape? </i></p>
	<p>Why do you think rapists&#8217; attitudes will be changed by saying &#8220;Don&#8217;t say bad things about men, you might hurt some poor man&#8217;s feeeeeeelings&#8221;? Do you think rapists and their Walter Mitty buddies will turn into devotees of feminist theory if only we are careful not to mention that most rapes are committed by men?</p>
	<p>RM, you know what, I&#8217;m white, and I don&#8217;t stick out my lower lip and stomp my feet when somebody points out that, in the US, whites have an overwhelming amount of race privilege and most race-based hate crimes are committed by whites. I don&#8217;t say that those foolish black people are <i>alienating</i> well-meaning white people by pointing out white racism. I don&#8217;t try to work in Personal Issues about Islam. I don&#8217;t jump up and down shouting that nobody has mentioned that some blacks are racist too.</p>
	<p>What was that Malcolm X said about throwing rocks at a pack of dogs?
</p>
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		<title>by: Mercurial Georgia</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/07/women-are-to-blame-for-everything-including-and-especially-male-abuse-towards-them/#comment-401500</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2007 21:00:07 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/07/women-are-to-blame-for-everything-including-and-especially-male-abuse-towards-them/#comment-401500</guid>
					<description>Respect Ad for the Internet Age:

An Ass: Hey Sarah
Sarah: Hey, do I know you?
An Ass: Um, no, but I know /you/, I've saw your page.
Sarah: Cool, did you like it?
An Ass: Yeah, I'll fuck ya.
Sarah: Sorry, you can watch but you can't touch, that's why I posted only pictures.
An Ass: Cause you are a fucking cocktease?  *is now menacing*
Sarah: Wait what?
An Ass: You tempt men with your offers and then you don't put out.
Sarah: When did I offer anything?
An Ass: The pictures.
Sarah: ...are there for all people to enjoy /visually/, I'm sorry for you if you suck at reading things.
An Ass: *threatens*
Sarah: Hey mall security?
An Ass: *is arrested* (and if mall security does nothing, complain corporate, if corporate does nothing, hit the media until you find someone who'll print the story)

*now that Sarah realise what the coach was talking about*
*telephone rings*
Sarah: Hey, sorry if I'm bothering you but I'm a student from your husband's school.
The Missus: Oh, is something the matter?
Sarah: Well, I found out something interesting today, there were some really nasty rumours about his interest in high school girls.
The Missus: &quot;Why I never -&quot;
Sarah: Check his internet history and come watch him watch the cheerleaders sometimes, goodbye!


A Message For Internet Users: The people you've read and seen pictures online of are real people with real feelings.  Stop being assholes or no cake.

A Message For All Grown Men: Lay off the high school girls ESPECIALLY if you mentor them, or no penis.

- MG</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Respect Ad for the Internet Age:</p>
	<p>An Ass: Hey Sarah<br />
Sarah: Hey, do I know you?<br />
An Ass: Um, no, but I know /you/, I&#8217;ve saw your page.<br />
Sarah: Cool, did you like it?<br />
An Ass: Yeah, I&#8217;ll fuck ya.<br />
Sarah: Sorry, you can watch but you can&#8217;t touch, that&#8217;s why I posted only pictures.<br />
An Ass: Cause you are a fucking cocktease?  *is now menacing*<br />
Sarah: Wait what?<br />
An Ass: You tempt men with your offers and then you don&#8217;t put out.<br />
Sarah: When did I offer anything?<br />
An Ass: The pictures.<br />
Sarah: &#8230;are there for all people to enjoy /visually/, I&#8217;m sorry for you if you suck at reading things.<br />
An Ass: *threatens*<br />
Sarah: Hey mall security?<br />
An Ass: *is arrested* (and if mall security does nothing, complain corporate, if corporate does nothing, hit the media until you find someone who&#8217;ll print the story)</p>
	<p>*now that Sarah realise what the coach was talking about*<br />
*telephone rings*<br />
Sarah: Hey, sorry if I&#8217;m bothering you but I&#8217;m a student from your husband&#8217;s school.<br />
The Missus: Oh, is something the matter?<br />
Sarah: Well, I found out something interesting today, there were some really nasty rumours about his interest in high school girls.<br />
The Missus: &#8220;Why I never -&#8221;<br />
Sarah: Check his internet history and come watch him watch the cheerleaders sometimes, goodbye!</p>
	<p>A Message For Internet Users: The people you&#8217;ve read and seen pictures online of are real people with real feelings.  Stop being assholes or no cake.</p>
	<p>A Message For All Grown Men: Lay off the high school girls ESPECIALLY if you mentor them, or no penis.</p>
	<p>- MG
</p>
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		<title>by: Mercurial Georgia</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/07/women-are-to-blame-for-everything-including-and-especially-male-abuse-towards-them/#comment-401487</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2007 20:29:40 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/07/women-are-to-blame-for-everything-including-and-especially-male-abuse-towards-them/#comment-401487</guid>
					<description>So I've sent in my comment to Daily Mail, I don't know if it'll be published though since I do not know what kind of newspaper it is, and I'm discouraged by the headlines that was shown after I submitted my comment:

Thank you for sending us your comment.
Your comment will be reviewed shortly. Comments may be edited and not all will be published.

Today our readers are talking about...
23 comments: 	How women are ruining the BBC, by Sir Patrick Moore
14 comments: 	Trinny and Susannah grin and bare it
13 comments: 	Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness set to share power at Stormont
11 comments: 	Doctors call for 'rationing' of NHS services
11 comments: 	Britons have more faith in used car salesman than politicians, says study

....

My comment:

&quot;Horrific issue, I'm glad that you brought it to light, and that the article both condemn the action and the lack of criminal investigation on the part of the authority.  I however, will take exception to the choice of the title, &quot;The moment a teenage girl was stoned to death for loving the wrong boy&quot;, do you realise then, the focus is shifted, to what the victim did, and not what the murderers did?  It became the fault of the victim for choosing to exercise her right to love whom she wish, and not the fault of the those men intolerant of her rights and moved to violate it.

This shift in focus in the headlines (http://pandagon.net/2007/05/07/women-are-to-blame-for-everything-including-and-especially-male-abuse-towards-them/), is akin to reporting that initial murder in Hamlet as: King Hamlet was poisoned to death for sleeping unguarded in the courtyard.

- MG&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>So I&#8217;ve sent in my comment to Daily Mail, I don&#8217;t know if it&#8217;ll be published though since I do not know what kind of newspaper it is, and I&#8217;m discouraged by the headlines that was shown after I submitted my comment:</p>
	<p>Thank you for sending us your comment.<br />
Your comment will be reviewed shortly. Comments may be edited and not all will be published.</p>
	<p>Today our readers are talking about&#8230;<br />
23 comments: 	How women are ruining the BBC, by Sir Patrick Moore<br />
14 comments: 	Trinny and Susannah grin and bare it<br />
13 comments: 	Ian Paisley and Martin McGuinness set to share power at Stormont<br />
11 comments: 	Doctors call for &#8216;rationing&#8217; of NHS services<br />
11 comments: 	Britons have more faith in used car salesman than politicians, says study</p>
	<p>&#8230;.</p>
	<p>My comment:</p>
	<p>&#8220;Horrific issue, I&#8217;m glad that you brought it to light, and that the article both condemn the action and the lack of criminal investigation on the part of the authority.  I however, will take exception to the choice of the title, &#8220;The moment a teenage girl was stoned to death for loving the wrong boy&#8221;, do you realise then, the focus is shifted, to what the victim did, and not what the murderers did?  It became the fault of the victim for choosing to exercise her right to love whom she wish, and not the fault of the those men intolerant of her rights and moved to violate it.</p>
	<p>This shift in focus in the headlines (http://pandagon.net/2007/05/07/women-are-to-blame-for-everything-including-and-especially-male-abuse-towards-them/), is akin to reporting that initial murder in Hamlet as: King Hamlet was poisoned to death for sleeping unguarded in the courtyard.</p>
	<p>- MG&#8221;
</p>
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		<title>by: Johanna</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/07/women-are-to-blame-for-everything-including-and-especially-male-abuse-towards-them/#comment-401434</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2007 18:38:19 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/07/women-are-to-blame-for-everything-including-and-especially-male-abuse-towards-them/#comment-401434</guid>
					<description>Oh. &quot;most of them&quot;.  I still blame the patriachy though.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Oh. &#8220;most of them&#8221;.  I still blame the patriachy though.
</p>
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