Comments on: Middle of the Night/Early Bird Stuff http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/02/middle-of-the-nightearly-bird-stuff/ Just another WordPress weblog Sun, 12 Feb 2012 15:59:39 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.1-alpha by: Stacy http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/02/middle-of-the-nightearly-bird-stuff/#comment-400025 Sat, 05 May 2007 15:42:11 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/02/middle-of-the-nightearly-bird-stuff/#comment-400025 I went to a talk by the author of The Feminine Mistake http://www.amazon.com/Feminine-Mistake-Are-Giving-Much/dp/1401303064/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-7866058-1031147?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178393979&sr=8-1 and am in the process of reading it now. It has a lot of fascinating statistics that explain in detail how incredibly risky & expensive it is in the long term to take time off / opt out of the workplace to be a stay at home mom. I recommend it highly - especially if you have any friends/relatives that are considering it. I went to a talk by the author of The Feminine Mistake
http://www.amazon.com/Feminine-Mistake-Are-Giving-Much/dp/1401303064/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-7866058-1031147?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1178393979&sr=8-1

and am in the process of reading it now. It has a lot of fascinating statistics that explain in detail how incredibly risky & expensive it is in the long term to take time off / opt out of the workplace to be a stay at home mom.
I recommend it highly - especially if you have any friends/relatives that are considering it.

]]> by: elyzabethe http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/02/middle-of-the-nightearly-bird-stuff/#comment-399337 Thu, 03 May 2007 16:05:10 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/02/middle-of-the-nightearly-bird-stuff/#comment-399337 I think this is interesting: strip club workers in Ohio have organized a group called Dancers for Democracy to help fight proposed legislation (likely to pass, from what I hear) championed by conservative christian groups that would effectively shut down strip clubs throughout the state, or at least make it a lot harder for the women working there to make money, on no other plausible legal grounds then they don't like strippers and strip clubs: http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2007/05/01/ddn050107strippersweb.html I think this is interesting: strip club workers in Ohio have organized a group called Dancers for Democracy to help fight proposed legislation (likely to pass, from what I hear) championed by conservative christian groups that would effectively shut down strip clubs throughout the state, or at least make it a lot harder for the women working there to make money, on no other plausible legal grounds then they don’t like strippers and strip clubs:

http://www.daytondailynews.com/n/content/oh/story/news/local/2007/05/01/ddn050107strippersweb.html

]]> by: djmoore http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/02/middle-of-the-nightearly-bird-stuff/#comment-398976 Wed, 02 May 2007 21:49:02 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/02/middle-of-the-nightearly-bird-stuff/#comment-398976 I read the research Brad reports as, essentially, supporting the idea that infanticide is a natural behavior among primates, and is an essential survival strategy under some circumstances. He reports that early infanticide has not been treated as felony homicide in European culture, even in predominately Catholic areas, until very recently. He also points out that mothers are so crucial to their babies' survival that making the forensic call for murder is very difficult--it's just too easy to let your baby die by "accident". He makes the case that if you want to reduce abortion rates, the best strategy is to remove the environmental pressures that make abortion (or infanticide) a desirable alternative, rather than persecuting the mothers. I don't think Brad is advocating either side of the abortion debate, he's just reporting Hrdy's research. I see nothing there to support the idea that mothers, human or otherwise, are evil, or even so much as uppity. [And, yes, Holly's right about infanticide versus matricide.] I read the research Brad reports as, essentially, supporting the idea that infanticide is a natural behavior among primates, and is an essential survival strategy under some circumstances.

He reports that early infanticide has not been treated as felony homicide in European culture, even in predominately Catholic areas, until very recently. He also points out that mothers are so crucial to their babies’ survival that making the forensic call for murder is very difficult–it’s just too easy to let your baby die by “accident”.

He makes the case that if you want to reduce abortion rates, the best strategy is to remove the environmental pressures that make abortion (or infanticide) a desirable alternative, rather than persecuting the mothers.

I don’t think Brad is advocating either side of the abortion debate, he’s just reporting Hrdy’s research.

I see nothing there to support the idea that mothers, human or otherwise, are evil, or even so much as uppity.

[And, yes, Holly’s right about infanticide versus matricide.]

]]> by: Helen H http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/02/middle-of-the-nightearly-bird-stuff/#comment-398904 Wed, 02 May 2007 18:36:24 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/02/middle-of-the-nightearly-bird-stuff/#comment-398904 Rabbits, rats and some birds are known to kill their young when under stress, starved or overcrowded. Rabbits, rats and some birds are known to kill their young when under stress, starved or overcrowded.

]]> by: Not A Morning Person http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/02/middle-of-the-nightearly-bird-stuff/#comment-398846 Wed, 02 May 2007 16:33:18 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/02/middle-of-the-nightearly-bird-stuff/#comment-398846 I've read Hrdy's book (yes, her name really does appear to have no vowels) and found it to be interesting. She was specifically researching this so-called "maternal instinct", and discovered that female mammals of several types -- not just primates, though they appear most in the book -- are just as much of a danger to their own offspring through neglect/abandonment/outright killing, as any territorial male of the same species could be. I thought the book was a great refutation of the "but women are made to be mothers!" argument, not a justification for "women are evil" -- but I'll admit that might be my biases showing more than Hrdy's intent. If some MRA doofus is now using it as justification for his He-Man Women-Haters Club, that actually makes me laugh. I'll have to wander over and look as that thread, and see what's going on. I’ve read Hrdy’s book (yes, her name really does appear to have no vowels) and found it to be interesting. She was specifically researching this so-called “maternal instinct”, and discovered that female mammals of several types — not just primates, though they appear most in the book — are just as much of a danger to their own offspring through neglect/abandonment/outright killing, as any territorial male of the same species could be.

I thought the book was a great refutation of the “but women are made to be mothers!” argument, not a justification for “women are evil” — but I’ll admit that might be my biases showing more than Hrdy’s intent. If some MRA doofus is now using it as justification for his He-Man Women-Haters Club, that actually makes me laugh. I’ll have to wander over and look as that thread, and see what’s going on.

]]> by: Holly http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/02/middle-of-the-nightearly-bird-stuff/#comment-398834 Wed, 02 May 2007 16:14:58 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/02/middle-of-the-nightearly-bird-stuff/#comment-398834 Actually, that should probably all read "infanticide by mothers" since "matricide" is "killing your mother." Actually, that should probably all read “infanticide by mothers” since “matricide” is “killing your mother.”

]]> by: Holly http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/02/middle-of-the-nightearly-bird-stuff/#comment-398832 Wed, 02 May 2007 16:14:20 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/02/middle-of-the-nightearly-bird-stuff/#comment-398832 Yeah, I read that link about matricide this morning and I didn't catch a whiff of MRA on it at all. It's actually really interesting and worth talking about -- matricide as a "reasonable" reaction for some circumstances, and an instinct that many animals have, including maybe humans. Of course humans have a lot of abilities that other animals don't... like an adoption system, and in theory a desire and willingness to try and make sure all children can be cared for. But yeah, I don't think matricide makes women evil at all... the most unexpected thing to me was that in a lot of countries in Europe, matricide is not even considered murder. Yeah, I read that link about matricide this morning and I didn’t catch a whiff of MRA on it at all. It’s actually really interesting and worth talking about — matricide as a “reasonable” reaction for some circumstances, and an instinct that many animals have, including maybe humans. Of course humans have a lot of abilities that other animals don’t… like an adoption system, and in theory a desire and willingness to try and make sure all children can be cared for. But yeah, I don’t think matricide makes women evil at all… the most unexpected thing to me was that in a lot of countries in Europe, matricide is not even considered murder.

]]> by: hf http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/02/middle-of-the-nightearly-bird-stuff/#comment-398830 Wed, 02 May 2007 16:12:34 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/02/middle-of-the-nightearly-bird-stuff/#comment-398830 And did I close that tag? If not, this should fix it. And did I close that tag? If not, this should fix it.

]]> by: hf http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/02/middle-of-the-nightearly-bird-stuff/#comment-398829 Wed, 02 May 2007 16:11:48 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/02/middle-of-the-nightearly-bird-stuff/#comment-398829 Huh, did I forget the link to the <a href="http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/05/twisty_maze_of_duck_oviducts.php#comment-421399" rel="nofollow">comment at Pharyngula or did the program eat it?</a> Huh, did I forget the link to the comment at Pharyngula or did the program eat it?

]]> by: hf http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/02/middle-of-the-nightearly-bird-stuff/#comment-398826 Wed, 02 May 2007 16:08:44 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/05/02/middle-of-the-nightearly-bird-stuff/#comment-398826 As the likely <a>source</a> of the controversial remark, I'd like to point out that Brad's post referred to a book by researcher Sarah Hrdy (yes, Hrdy) and not an anecdote. Nor does it refer solely to infanticide by <i>other</i> primates. Nor do I recall a single comment on <a href="http://bradhicks.livejournal.com/328184.html" rel="nofollow">Brad's original post</a> that called women evil, though some did talk about the consequences of a world without abortion. As the likely source of the controversial remark, I’d like to point out that Brad’s post referred to a book by researcher Sarah Hrdy (yes, Hrdy) and not an anecdote. Nor does it refer solely to infanticide by other primates. Nor do I recall a single comment on Brad’s original post that called women evil, though some did talk about the consequences of a world without abortion.

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