Will we see these home-grown suspects called potential domestic terrorists? These weren’t just people with grandiose thoughts — these militia crazies were caught with grenades, rocket launchers and a ton of ammo.
Oh wait, they’re not brown people of that “other” faith. Can you imagine the reaction if they were Arab or Muslim? From the Birmingham News, this just goes to show you that we have to worry about the armed and dangerous enemy within. This is f*cking scary:
Simultaneous raids carried out in four Alabama counties Thursday turned up truckloads of explosives and weapons, including 130 grenades, an improvised rocket launcher and 2,500 rounds of ammunition belonging to the small, but mightily armed, Alabama Free Militia.At the Hughes home, officials found 100 improvised hand grenades, 70 improvised hand grenades fired from the 37 mm rocket launch, a submachine gun and two silencers.Six alleged members of the Free Militia also were arrested by federal authorities and are being held without bond.
Investigators said the DeKalb County-based group had not made any specific threats or devised any plots, but was targeted for swift dismantling because of its heavy firepower. The militia, which called itself the Naval Militia at one point, had enough armament to outfit a small army.
… “We classify these groups as violent and anti-government,” said Jim Cavanaugh, who supervises the federal Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives operations in portions of the South. “They stockpile things and live off a fear, a paranoia they’re going to need weapons and explosives because some event is going to happen when they will need them.”
…Agents encountered booby traps at one site. They found trip wires and two hand grenades rigged as booby traps at the Collinsville camper home of 46-year-old Raymond Dillard, who holds titles of both militia major and fugitive from justice on an unrelated federal case in Mobile.
“We were prepared,” Cavanaugh said. “We suspect booby traps with these types of groups.”
Arrested and detained in federal custody were Dillard, also known as Jeff Osborne, 46, of Collinsville; Adam Lynn Cunningham, 41, of Collinsville; Bonnell Hughes, 57, of Crossville; Randall Garrett Cole, 22, of Gadsden; James Ray McElroy, 20, of Collinsville; and Michael Wayne Bobo, 30, of Trussville.
Here are the all-American faces of potential terrorism: Dillard, McElroy, Cole, Hughes, Cunningham. More photos here.
God Bless America.
39 Responses to “Alabama militia raided, feds find truckloads of weapons and ammo”
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Pam asks:
I’m sure this is a rhetorical question but the answer is NO. With this one caveat: if they can be connected to the Klan, it becomes a maybe. For some semi-obvious reasons, most folks in the US do recognize the Klan as a domestic terror group but only the Klan. Beyond that, fuggeddahboutit.
What really gets me is that if this had in fact been in a country in the middle east, our government would be using it as evidence that we had to invade that country.
What’s the BATF got against the 2nd amendment? These Alabam’ans were just exercising their God-given rights to protect themselves from jack-boot feds! The NRA is going to be taking names and kicking butt!
Jesus bloody Christ thats a lot of gear. 130 hand grenades?!? What were these guys getting ready for? What would have happened if they hadn’t been raided?
Now IANAgun person, but is 2,500 rounds really that much ammo, especially divided six ways? What’s a reasonable amount for someone who shoots on a regular basis?
Pah, you librul sissies. These brave americans were just excercising their god given second amendment rights. God given, I say!
well did they actually attack anyone? Seems like government over-reaching to me.
Why can’t I stockpile arms and ammunition for judgement day? Its not like they were in an apartment building and it was a danger to others.
And doesn’t everyone have booby-traps protecting their house and property? Just put out a sign
“Tresspassers will be blown up!”
oh and the grenades were for fishing.
The_Librarian–
I’m reading freeperland for shits and giggles and that is exactly what they are saying, if not MUCH worse.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1824506/posts
I didn’t want to pollute this board with their comments like I did on the “staging the Austin clinic bombing” but I’ll put down the best quote so far.
“The SPLC is no better than Al Queda.[sic]”
Seriously, folks. Comparing the Southern Poverty Law Center to Al-Qaeda. Unreal.
Sophist: a 50 cartridge box ought to do the typical gun owner just fine. I always bought ammo at the range whenever I went shooting, so that 50 lasted me years.
Frankly, that doesn’t make me feel better. Fishing with explosives is a horribly destructive practice that decimates wildlife.
Gah. While I do think these guys were loons who needed to be busted, the launcher they’re talking about isn’t a rocket launcher. It’s an overgrown flare launcher that basically uses the equiv. of a blank 12 ga. shotgun shell to pop a flare (legally) or a grenade (illegally) downrange. As long as you limit yourself to flares, it isn’t considered a weapon, and you don’t need a license to purchase it or the flares. There are definitely no rockets involved - unless you’re in the real shallow end of the gene pool, huffing the chlorine fumes. And we all know how that ends - “Hey, watch this!”
Also, I’ve had some friends who would have considered 500 rounds or so a decent amount to keep in the house: 100 for the 12 ga., 50 for the .303, 50 for the .30-06, 50 for the .45, and so on. If it was 2500 rounds of the same caliber? That’s a different story. Oh, and they’d have considered these guys to be loons, too…
Grenades (home made or not) are considered to be “destructive devices” under Federal and are illegal. The number of rounds is irrelevant unless the state in question has an “arsenal law.” However, perhaps these people are guilty of some kind of conspiracy.
Yeah, but how many rural people do their shooting at a range?
One box at a time may be fine for you Moira- I’ve never used a range in my life; all my shooting is done out in the desert.
I’m not even sure why the ammunition was mentioned, much less why it was taken. As evidence? Or to put a bigger pile of stuff on a table for reporters to gawk at? It’s not contraband. You can easily buy it wholesale online. Gunbroker.com (kind of a weapons-only ebay) has thousands of listings for all sorts of ammo, including many in large lots of 1000 (20 boxes) or more. I mean, if anyone thinks ammunition is hard to get in large amounts, a moment at that site will open your eyes.
The story describes the 2500 rounds coming from one guy’s house, where he also had 12 guns. I know this sounds nuts, but I don’t think that’s an unreasonable amount if someone does a lot of shooting, especially if those guns are different calibers. I’ve known quite a few folks who kept at least that many weapons and puh-lenty of rounds for each. Especially in rural areas, but not only there. If one does a lot of shooting it just makes sense to buy it wholesale.
When I used to go plink at cans out in the desert with my 9, I’d easily shoot 4 or 5 boxes in a day. I’d wait for it to go on sale and pick up 4 or 5 boxes at a time from a local store. I also keep 2 boxes in the house with the gun, which lives in its case. I could order 1000 or so online just to save money. (A LOT of money- typical retail price around here is $10 for a box of 50, or 20 cents each, when on sale. I see a listing at gunbroker right now for 1000 9mm rounds for $154.95. I mean, damn, that’s cheap.)
The explosives and automatic weapons are illegal, of course. I’m guessing nobody arrested had proper permits, right? We’ll see what these freaks actually get charged with. I notice that one of the charges is manufacturing firearms.
Of course they’ll never be called terrorists. Wrong color and/or religion. But also, from this story at least, there doesn’t seem to be any evidence that these individuals actually threatened anyone or engaged in anything like terrorism- these are mostly weapons charges, as far as I can tell from this story.
Anyone who sets up deadly explosive booby traps on their property is a nutbar- I’m pretty sure that’s illegal right there. And since the OKC bombing, it’s pretty clear any group calling itself a militia needs watching, no matter how much they call themselves “patriots.” I guess it’s good to know the FBI isn’t putting all its resources into pot, porn, and harrassing antiwar protestors.
Oops. My bad- it’s the BATFE, not the FBI, and the money quote is “We classify these groups as violent and anti-government,â€?. Violent and anti-government: sounds like terrorists to me.
I’m always torn about the idea of a militia — I need them for my revolutionary purposes, but they cannot be trusted, unless I’m at the helm. I admire their fervor, but I fear it, too.
The best ever book on the American anti-abortion movement was a horror novel by Stephen King called “Insomnia” — the only book I ever read by a man who really “got it”.
These guys are straight out of that book.
I wonder what their target was. The articles I’ve found seem not to say. Couldn’t have been good, though.
…is 2,500 rounds really that much ammo?
When I was shooting in a league (paper targets and bowling pins at an indoor range), I regularly purchased 1000 rounds at a time. Saved about 50% from range prices (they make their money on ammo/targets). Beyond the weekly matches, I was down there twice a week practicing. Would go through 100 rounds a visit in training.
Now, hand-grenades? What’s up with that?
Oh, just when I think life can’t get more like a Carl Hiaasen book, these characters make the news.
If I had a gun I’d probably keep ~500 rounds in a box in the closet, just in case. It’d be there just in case of large scale civil disorder (N’Awlins, anyone?), and I’d want to have the ability to fire *lots* of warning shots without worrying about conserving ammo.
Given current circumstances I think the chances are minimal of large scale disturbances breaking out, but these things can change very fast indeed. I’ve witnessed it first hand and it isn’t very nice at all.
Um, the main difference between these men and real terrorists is that they are preparing to respond to a deprivation of their Constitutional Rights, rather than preparing to target innocent civilians for slaughter. It is called nuance, I believe.
Using Islam as a proxy for race is a bit telling - because you perceive Moslems as only black or brown (and possibly yellow) they become insta-mascots worthy of protected status. The fact remains that while most Moslems are indeed South Asian, Arab, Persian, etc., there is a significant contingent of Caucasian Moslems, some notably affiliated with AQ. The point which should not be missed - at the very least in the interests of consistency - is that Islam is an ideology with socio-political dimensions. You may despise Roman Catholicism and ascribe all sorts of negative predicates to its teachings and doctrine, as is your right - but you should not deprive others of expressing their observations about Islam and its adherents in a similar fashion.
2500 rounds is a pathetically small supply for a weekend let alone a revolution or apocalypse. Whoever said 50 rounds is sufficient for anybody’s needs:
a) doesn’t expect to have to shoot 51 or more people; and
b) is planning on not missing. once.
There are, however, concepts in small arms combat that provide for missing once or twice.
Um, did the people who are defending the amount of ammunition miss the whole part where Raymond Dillard is a wanted man?
Maybe it’s just me, but I get a little concerned when people who are hiding from the law are busy stockpiling weapons and hand grenades. Silly of me, I know, but that’s just how I feel.
Yes, 2,500 rounds of ammo isn’t that much … UNLESS THE COPS ARE LOOKING FOR YOU.
Geez.
“Maybe it’s just me, but I get a little concerned when people who are hiding from the law are busy stockpiling weapons and hand grenades. Silly of me, I know, but that’s just how I feel.”
Mnemosyne, are you French or something? If Ray Dillard is a wanted man, it’s probably because he’s FREE, and represents a great threat to the GUV’MINT! No wonder they want to strip his firearms from him and lock him up - other Americans might be inspired by his example!…
[/snark]
No, just making an observation re: some of the items in the article. Look at the passage Pam highlighted:130 grenades: a Bad Thing under any circumstance.
Improvised rocket launcher: wrong. Not a rocket launcher. A Bad Thing because they made grenades to be launched from it.
2500 rounds of ammo: might be a stockpile, might not be. Probably a Bad Thing, but not necessarily.
All of the above, including an SMG, silencers, and booby traps? Definitely a Bad Thing. All of the preceding being possessed by a fugitive? A Really Bad Thing. These bozos being arrested? Definitely a Good Thing.
One can like an event and still not like the reporting of the event. Sloppy use of sensational terms like ‘rocket launcher’ weakens the credibility of the reporting.
Moron - I second that comment. “Insomnia” had the whole scary-anti-abortionist thing down.
Sophist wrote:
Hm. I don’t shoot recreationaly, but I can give you this much: basic ammo loadout for an infantryman is 250 rounds. So that’s ten soldiers’ worth of rounds. Grenade loadout is about 4 or 5, depending on type and mission. Assuming those are all hand-thrown types, that’s about 26 soldiers’ worth of grenades. Of course, the media not necessarily being expert in military ordnance, some of those grenades might be RPG types, particularly given the mention of a launcher.
They could certainly take on a small-town or county police force and if they have any kind of coordination, probably win. They could likely give a platoon of soldiers a bad, busy time.
Yahoos like this bother me. A lot.
I should clarify that ‘basic loadout’ is what a soldier is generally expected to need for one day of combat operations. I also erred in making the assumption that it was all of the same type. Someone else mentioned above that 12 weapons were found at this bozo’s home; I don’t think it likely they were all the same type, in which case the ammo probably breaks down into smaller amounts per weapon. Enough to be holed up with stuff and hold off the cops for a while, but not so much for taking over the country.
Ballisticus: IF the group were stockpiling ammo JUST in case the government went rogue I could see your point about the difference between them and terrorists and even agree with you. However, I have read entirely too much rhetoric firsthand from these nuts (as in, on their websites–not the Alabama group specifically but groups like them) to believe that’s really the only thing they’re about. And frankly, given the firepower capabilities of the United States government, the only way you could really defend against it going rogue is if you had nuclear capabilities and really big tanks. And I wish you luck being able to afford same.
That said, I’m still pro-Second Amendment, a rather unusual position on the left and among feminists (although I do not blame rape survivors for not shooting their attackers, unlike some 2nders). But I am NOT okay with right-wing nuts who want to turn women into brood mares and run out all the darkies, acquiring loads and loads of dangerous stuff to use against either group.
I do have to say I’m a bit sickened by the BATF’s complaint that this particular group was “anti-government.” Since when is that a crime? Shit, they might as well imprison anybody with a .22 at home who goes around bitching about Bush or the IRS.
As for your point about Islam, how dare you. Seriously. Let’s look at this, okay? The left aren’t the first ones to have decided that Muslims are brown people. When a leftist claims that anti-Muslim people are racist we are responding to the RIGHT’s equivalence of Islam with brown people. The main thing we’re guilty of is responding to YOUR frame rather than inventing one of our own to discuss this issue.
You’re absolutely right that there are white reverts to Islam. I’ve actually been mulling over doing so myself, and my ancestry’s French on both sides with a little Native American and German thrown in. I’m about as far from the Middle East as you’re gonna get without being Inuit. *grin* That said, white Muslims are still in the extreme minority. There are over one billion Muslims and most of them live in countries with majority people-of-color populations. I don’t have numbers in front of me as to racial percentages of the Muslim population in the United States but I’d be willing to lay money white Muslims are outnumbered here too.
As such, your statement that anti-Muslim prejudice can’t possibly stem from racism is dishonest, much like stating that rape can’t possibly be a gender issue since men are also raped. I could almost unconditionally guarantee that if the racial majority of the ummah were Caucasian, we would not be seeing all this fearmongering going on about Muslims that goes on now, and the fact that the religion was started by an Arab would be completely inconsequential–Jesus wasn’t white, after all, and neither was Moses.
And you are correct that Islam extends into the sociopolitical sphere. Being an orthopraxic religion, it can’t do anything else; how one behaves is as important as what one believes in that particular faith. However, the Qur’an also states that there is no compulsion in religion (Qur’an 2:256). While we are playing “compare Catholics and Muslims” here, kindly recall from history that while the Moors controlled the Iberian Peninsula and were making the laws, Jew and Christian and Muslim alike lived in peace, and no non-Muslim was compelled to revert. This would not be possible in any case, as the Qur’an teaches that God knows our hearts, therefore pretending to be Muslim would not gain us Paradise. But when the Catholics reconquered Spain they drove the Moors out–and the Jews who would not convert, and they killed any Christians in their land that they deemed heretical by means of the Inquisition. In fact, the Church is still killing people today, only they aren’t using bombs or guns in most cases. You might want to think about that a bit.
Not only is the MSM not going to call these wackjobs “terrorists”, but I also don’t imagine there’s going to be a whole lot of, “T’hell with the Constitution, just lock ‘em up for the safety of everyone else!” rhetoric like we’ve seen just this past week from people defending the government denying the right to due process to the “detainees” at Guantanamo Bay.
The problem with these anti-government groups is that they’re really not against government. I get a strong sense they’d be extremely cool with a government they were running. And they’re not really against the current U.S. government so much as they’re against who they think is really running the show.
Ever notice that? It never happens. Bunch “normal Americans” sitting around and discussing the state of things and one pipes up, “Ya know, fellas, the darned ol’ government sure is getting intrusive into our private lives and allowing corporations too much access with too little oversight and, gosh, they keep overstepping the Constituional limits to their power, apparently to do little more than line their pockets. We should get some guns and call each other ‘Major’.” I could almost get behind that, but that never happens. It’s always a bunch of yay-hoos convinced the Jewish Banking Conspiracy is about to unleash the Darkie Horde to steal our jobs, blow up our buildings, and state luridly at our women while the Liberal Media and the Hollywood Elite force us all to marry gay people who are gay and like to be gay AND WILL MAKE YOU GAY! While we’re all being sodomized and forced to redecorate apartments or read books or some gay shit like that, the Worldwide Communist Conspiracy makes us all wear a big 666 on our forheads while we’re forced to bow towards Mecca TEN times a day because the feminists made us all become Muslims. And the Queen of England is both a space lizard and the head of a pedophile ring, apparently.
It’s always something like that. Never just “big government”, there’s always some cackling mastermind behind it all and everyone who shares that person’s ethnicity/religion/iedology/skin color is as bad as Hitler times infinity. Y’all, I’ve done peyote and still can’t figure out where they get this shit from. And, inevitably, in their New World Order, the Klan or the Birchers or the Michigan Milita or Snipers For Fetus, Bogart Chapter, or whoever, dissenters are, essentially, screwed. It’s odd how the answer to the evils of the current government, perceived as “authoritarian” by the paint huffer that makes you average “anti-government” soldier is a government that is actually authoritarian. Go figure.
Dana,
Three things:
First, Muslims qua brown people is not MY frame - methinks you project a smidge. Nevertheless, whether the frame is mine, yours, or someone else’s, it is just as racist and wrongheaded to hold Islam apart from criticism because it is dominated demographically by brown people as it is to universally condemn Islam because it is a religion of brown people. I also belive you to be a little dishonest when you do not admit that a good deal of the motivation behind Islamist terrorist activity arises from a certain Arab supremacy that has a patent racist flavor. I have had personal relationships with the sons of the departed King Hussein’s inner circle, and they have related as much to me in rather plain language, not really mentioning Islam - the phenomena has quite a lot to do with the tribal culture of the near east, particularly - as a Jordanian phrased it rather bluntly - who will be “Head Arab” at the table. Arabs do not constitute the majority of Moslems, however they do predominate in the hierarchy of terrorist organizations, as well as in the suicidal/homicidal cannon-fodder ranks.
Second, there ARE majority caucasian, majority Moslem nations - decidedly NOT populated by “reverts.” Azerbaijan, Turkey, Chechnya to name three - I’ve known Azerijanis and Turks, but no Chechnyans.
Lastly, I was not “playing compare Molsems to Catholics.” I was merely stating that sauce for the Catholic goose is sauce for the Moslem gander, as it were. While I would admit readily that the Inquisition was more awful than the Dhimmitude in Moslem occupied Spain, it is quite a bit like being the tallest midget in that circus of history. Regardless, what IS important is not the Qur’an, but how Islam is practiced by its adherents in the modern world - which I believe leaves something to be desired in many cases. It is not for me to decide what orthodox Islam is and isn’t - quite frankly, other than as an academic exercise I don’t quite care - but I do have an interest in how Moslems acting in the name of Islam relate to me, and if it is overwhelmingly negatively, I reserve the right to draw my own conclusion from that experience.
The thing I don’t get is why you need these folks to prove the point about how most domestic terrorists in the US are white Americans, after all, there’s lots of more obvious, more dangerous, and better armed terror groups:
There’s the National Guard, there’s the US Army, there’s a city police department in every city, many states have police departments, too. Most all of these organisations are in the business of terrorizing people.
This news story just reeks of Cops patting themselves on the backs and making themselves out to be heroes, so I doubt we’re getting the whole story. It’s kind of wierd, too to hear ATF agents talk about how these guys are unneccesarily paranoid by thinking they need all these weapons when every police department I’ve ever seen is obsessed with stockpiling the latest gadgets and weapons they can get their hands on.
I’m not saying these militia types aren’t scary, but how different are they, really, from your average police department?
Well, for starters I can’t vote for the militia chief, unlike, say, the county sheriff. And I can’t remember the last time I ever saw a Civilian Militia Oversight Board.I’d call those pretty significant differences.
Good point. :-/
I’m mildly disturbed by the article’s tone.
I’m sure they’re actually being arrested for violations of specific laws: for instance, the guy who’s on the run, silencers, dangerous and unlicensed imrovised explosives. Most likely they had made generalized threats. But that wasn’t the emphasis of the article or the cops, and it should have been. Frankly, amassing an arsenal for an army is not a crime in most parts of this country, and arguably it shouldn’t be a crime. It’s certainly not a crime to be paranoid.
How about disarming the (many) ones who *have* devised plots and made threats? That is sort of the bargain we made with the whole “innocent until proven guilty” thing.
Of course, they probably will get treated fairly. If they’d been a paranoid Muslim group with similar firepower they would probably have been locked up without trial or shot, and called “terrorists” whether they were or not.
A point about why the BATF agents might be testy about “anti-government” groups: they’d possibly be some of the government employees on the other end of those hoarded firearms. You know, should the Alabama free Militia actively focus in on government departments that might, say, interfere with their right to own explosives, booby traps, and firearms.
Waco was for the children. The “gov” killed them. Meanwhile gov & media told all kinds of lies & we believed them. Hearings held on Waco & miraculously Timmy Mcveigh strikes, no more hearings. Look up false flags, guess what, 911 was an inside job. do the research yourself. Look up patriot act look up john warner defense bill, how about thought crime legislation? I believe hr 1995 media & gov don’t advertise these very loudly, believe in constitution? terrorist according to FBI. You people & comments show the apathy in this nation because you parrot others rather than be responsible, by actively researching facts instead of parroting propaganda. Forgive the typos the page keeps expiring!LOL