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	<title>Comments on: Bush Administration finally allows Wiccan pentacle on veteran memorials</title>
	<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/04/24/bush-administration-finally-allows-wiccan-pentacle-on-veteran-memorials/</link>
	<description>Just another WordPress weblog</description>
	<pubDate>Tue, 10 Nov 2009 00:22:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: Left_Wing_Fox</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/04/24/bush-administration-finally-allows-wiccan-pentacle-on-veteran-memorials/#comment-395980</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2007 17:03:12 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/04/24/bush-administration-finally-allows-wiccan-pentacle-on-veteran-memorials/#comment-395980</guid>
					<description>I think many of those &quot;militia&quot; groups are probably not going to be the allies of Democratic party in any meaningful way. David Neiwert at Orcinus ( http://dneiwert.blogspot.com ) has done a fair bit of research into these groups when dealing with eliminationist rhetoric, pseudofascism and authoritarianism.

That's not to say all the militias or members are irredemable, and many do share concerns with the progressive populist movements. It's just a matter of whether our similarities are more powerful than our differences.

But yeah, I'm pleasantly surprised at the Freepers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think many of those &#8220;militia&#8221; groups are probably not going to be the allies of Democratic party in any meaningful way. David Neiwert at Orcinus ( <a href='http://dneiwert.blogspot.com' rel='nofollow'>http://dneiwert.blogspot.com</a> ) has done a fair bit of research into these groups when dealing with eliminationist rhetoric, pseudofascism and authoritarianism.</p>
	<p>That&#8217;s not to say all the militias or members are irredemable, and many do share concerns with the progressive populist movements. It&#8217;s just a matter of whether our similarities are more powerful than our differences.</p>
	<p>But yeah, I&#8217;m pleasantly surprised at the Freepers.
</p>
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		<title>by: witless chum</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/04/24/bush-administration-finally-allows-wiccan-pentacle-on-veteran-memorials/#comment-395854</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:06:00 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/04/24/bush-administration-finally-allows-wiccan-pentacle-on-veteran-memorials/#comment-395854</guid>
					<description>The NAFTAization of the Democratic Party is a betrayal that's well-remembered by a lot of people in the Midwest. Now, those are probably a lot of the same people who were voting for Reagan and Nixon (or Wallace) because of their dislike of, as they put it in Michigan 'Detroit,' so they helped make that bed, but it's for real and felt by a lot of people not in the Norman Olson zipcode of crankdom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The NAFTAization of the Democratic Party is a betrayal that&#8217;s well-remembered by a lot of people in the Midwest. Now, those are probably a lot of the same people who were voting for Reagan and Nixon (or Wallace) because of their dislike of, as they put it in Michigan &#8216;Detroit,&#8217; so they helped make that bed, but it&#8217;s for real and felt by a lot of people not in the Norman Olson zipcode of crankdom.
</p>
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		<title>by: jon</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/04/24/bush-administration-finally-allows-wiccan-pentacle-on-veteran-memorials/#comment-395827</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2007 09:12:07 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/04/24/bush-administration-finally-allows-wiccan-pentacle-on-veteran-memorials/#comment-395827</guid>
					<description>This just proves that when most Christians talk about religious freedom, they're talking about Christian domination.

I work at a prison, and there's a concerted effort on the part of some of the chaplains and property staff to stymie the Wiccans, Pagans, and, to some degree, Native Americans/Indians in their efforts to worship.  It's absolutely disgusting to see state employees doing all they can to keep some herbs and even the product catalogs out of the hands of non-Christians while every Christian who wants to visit and praise the lord almost gets the run of the place.

A bunch of inmates whose religious leanings seem to be a combination of Dungeons and Dragons, voodoo, Thor comics, and heavy metal satanism are so scary that for them to get an herb catalog into the prison it would be a dangerous affront to the secure operations of the institution.  At least that's what the memo said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>This just proves that when most Christians talk about religious freedom, they&#8217;re talking about Christian domination.</p>
	<p>I work at a prison, and there&#8217;s a concerted effort on the part of some of the chaplains and property staff to stymie the Wiccans, Pagans, and, to some degree, Native Americans/Indians in their efforts to worship.  It&#8217;s absolutely disgusting to see state employees doing all they can to keep some herbs and even the product catalogs out of the hands of non-Christians while every Christian who wants to visit and praise the lord almost gets the run of the place.</p>
	<p>A bunch of inmates whose religious leanings seem to be a combination of Dungeons and Dragons, voodoo, Thor comics, and heavy metal satanism are so scary that for them to get an herb catalog into the prison it would be a dangerous affront to the secure operations of the institution.  At least that&#8217;s what the memo said.
</p>
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		<title>by: cminus</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/04/24/bush-administration-finally-allows-wiccan-pentacle-on-veteran-memorials/#comment-395805</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2007 07:27:12 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/04/24/bush-administration-finally-allows-wiccan-pentacle-on-veteran-memorials/#comment-395805</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;
There’s a chapter in one of the early Michael Moore books in which he visits a milita group, and they tell him off for how the lefties alienated them in the 60s and 70s — when they could easily have been allies in the struggle. I don’t remember the details, but it was entirely reasonable, cogent, and convincing.
&lt;/i&gt;

It's from &quot;Downsize This!&quot;  Money quote, from an interview with Michigan Militia commander Norm Olson:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
By day's end, Norm and the boys were getting tired.  I asked them to take an oath forsaking violence.  Norm told me he didn't expect to be alive a year from now, that the final confrontation with the government was coming and he would probably die defending his beliefs.  I gave him a swig of my Snapple and wished him well.  He asked me one final question.

&quot;You know, you guys were right in the sixties,&quot; Norm said.  &quot;The government lied to us.  They probably killed Dr. King.  Us conservatives were wrong.  So when we finally wised up in the nineties, after all these jobs were lost, where were you liberals when we needed your help?&quot;

I didn't have an answer.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

(My answer would probably begin with &quot;where were &lt;i&gt;you&lt;/i&gt; in the sixties, seventies and eighties, when we needed your help?&quot;, but I'm in one of those moods today.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i><br />
There’s a chapter in one of the early Michael Moore books in which he visits a milita group, and they tell him off for how the lefties alienated them in the 60s and 70s — when they could easily have been allies in the struggle. I don’t remember the details, but it was entirely reasonable, cogent, and convincing.<br />
</i></p>
	<p>It&#8217;s from &#8220;Downsize This!&#8221;  Money quote, from an interview with Michigan Militia commander Norm Olson:</p>
	<blockquote><p>
By day&#8217;s end, Norm and the boys were getting tired.  I asked them to take an oath forsaking violence.  Norm told me he didn&#8217;t expect to be alive a year from now, that the final confrontation with the government was coming and he would probably die defending his beliefs.  I gave him a swig of my Snapple and wished him well.  He asked me one final question.</p>
	<p>&#8220;You know, you guys were right in the sixties,&#8221; Norm said.  &#8220;The government lied to us.  They probably killed Dr. King.  Us conservatives were wrong.  So when we finally wised up in the nineties, after all these jobs were lost, where were you liberals when we needed your help?&#8221;</p>
	<p>I didn&#8217;t have an answer.
</p></blockquote>
	<p>(My answer would probably begin with &#8220;where were <i>you</i> in the sixties, seventies and eighties, when we needed your help?&#8221;, but I&#8217;m in one of those moods today.)
</p>
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		<title>by: cminus</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/04/24/bush-administration-finally-allows-wiccan-pentacle-on-veteran-memorials/#comment-395803</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Apr 2007 07:17:27 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/04/24/bush-administration-finally-allows-wiccan-pentacle-on-veteran-memorials/#comment-395803</guid>
					<description>&lt;i&gt;
The sun is shining in Michigan. Birds are singing. The Lions are going to draft a future all pro this weekend,
&lt;/i&gt;

and trade him to the team he'll lead to three Super Bowls after spending one season on the bench in Detroit?

(Sorry, I understand the desire for positive thinking, but, c'mon, the &lt;i&gt;Lions&lt;/i&gt;?)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p><i><br />
The sun is shining in Michigan. Birds are singing. The Lions are going to draft a future all pro this weekend,<br />
</i></p>
	<p>and trade him to the team he&#8217;ll lead to three Super Bowls after spending one season on the bench in Detroit?</p>
	<p>(Sorry, I understand the desire for positive thinking, but, c&#8217;mon, the <i>Lions</i>?)
</p>
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		<title>by: Antinome</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/04/24/bush-administration-finally-allows-wiccan-pentacle-on-veteran-memorials/#comment-395657</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 19:36:29 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/04/24/bush-administration-finally-allows-wiccan-pentacle-on-veteran-memorials/#comment-395657</guid>
					<description>One thing not mentioned in the article is that in the settlement the government agreed to pay $225,000 in attorney's fees to the plaintiffs.  Yes our tax dollars are being spent because our government road blocked a simple request that should have been no brainer to grant.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>One thing not mentioned in the article is that in the settlement the government agreed to pay $225,000 in attorney&#8217;s fees to the plaintiffs.  Yes our tax dollars are being spent because our government road blocked a simple request that should have been no brainer to grant.
</p>
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		<title>by: smartalek</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/04/24/bush-administration-finally-allows-wiccan-pentacle-on-veteran-memorials/#comment-395650</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 19:14:34 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/04/24/bush-administration-finally-allows-wiccan-pentacle-on-veteran-memorials/#comment-395650</guid>
					<description>There's a chapter in one of the early Michael Moore books in which he visits a milita group, and they tell him off for how the lefties alienated them in the 60s and 70s -- when they could easily have been allies in the struggle.  I don't remember the details, but it was entirely reasonable, cogent, and convincing.
We've allowed the reichwing, through their takeover of the media and exploitation of evangelical Christians (many of whom are entirely decent, well-meaning people in most respects), to convince far too many on both the rignt and the middle that &quot;elitist liberals,&quot; &quot;big government,&quot; and &quot;politically correct secular humanism&quot; are their enemies.  It was a masterpiece of the classic divide-and-conquer tactic.
The reality, of course, is that the real economic elite -- the shareholder, rentier class and the corporatocracy -- are the enemies of all of us, together.
And if we have leaders who can manage to convey these realities to broad enough audiences, it might just be possible for us all to take our country back from the cabal that have stolen and/or destroyed it.  (Obama?  Edwards?  Never Hillary, of course...)
If we and the FReepi can agree on something like this, who knows what might be possible?  Hope springs eternal...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>There&#8217;s a chapter in one of the early Michael Moore books in which he visits a milita group, and they tell him off for how the lefties alienated them in the 60s and 70s &#8212; when they could easily have been allies in the struggle.  I don&#8217;t remember the details, but it was entirely reasonable, cogent, and convincing.<br />
We&#8217;ve allowed the reichwing, through their takeover of the media and exploitation of evangelical Christians (many of whom are entirely decent, well-meaning people in most respects), to convince far too many on both the rignt and the middle that &#8220;elitist liberals,&#8221; &#8220;big government,&#8221; and &#8220;politically correct secular humanism&#8221; are their enemies.  It was a masterpiece of the classic divide-and-conquer tactic.<br />
The reality, of course, is that the real economic elite &#8212; the shareholder, rentier class and the corporatocracy &#8212; are the enemies of all of us, together.<br />
And if we have leaders who can manage to convey these realities to broad enough audiences, it might just be possible for us all to take our country back from the cabal that have stolen and/or destroyed it.  (Obama?  Edwards?  Never Hillary, of course&#8230;)<br />
If we and the FReepi can agree on something like this, who knows what might be possible?  Hope springs eternal&#8230;
</p>
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		<title>by: Armagh444</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/04/24/bush-administration-finally-allows-wiccan-pentacle-on-veteran-memorials/#comment-395644</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 19:04:24 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/04/24/bush-administration-finally-allows-wiccan-pentacle-on-veteran-memorials/#comment-395644</guid>
					<description>Good post, Pam, and it's always nice to see non-Pagans standing up for the rights of any Pagan.  (Not all Pagans are Wiccan, so not all Pagans use the pentacle, but that's a discussion for another day and really irrelevant to the point at hand.)

There is one point that you missed, one that just about everyone I've seen commenting on this very good news has missed.  What the plaintiffs had to give up in order to get what they wanted.  According to what I've read, there was one thing that the VA demanded . . . documents.  My guess is that those documents were the ones that demonstrated anti-Wiccan bias on the part of the Administration and the fact that the VA was acting on that bias.  There are other issues out there (e.g., the Wiccan chaplain who was removed from the Chaplain's service after becoming a Wiccan), and while those incidents may not directly deal with the VA, I would imagine those documents would have been a useful investigatory starting point (presuming some sort of legal action were taken).  They're not accessible any more.  Not the end of the world of course, and knowing there might be relevant documents out there is still a decent starting point, but it would have been easier to have the starting point in hand.

Now, I'm not questioning the decision made by Circle Sanctuary on behalf of and (I would imagine) with Mrs. Stewart.  She had her battle to fight, and it wouldn't be fair for anyone to expect her to fight other folks battles as well.  Gods know it must have taken phenomenal strength for her to make it through the ordeal she has already had to endure.

I just think it's interesting and potentially instructive that the one demand the VA would not let go of was for documents.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Good post, Pam, and it&#8217;s always nice to see non-Pagans standing up for the rights of any Pagan.  (Not all Pagans are Wiccan, so not all Pagans use the pentacle, but that&#8217;s a discussion for another day and really irrelevant to the point at hand.)</p>
	<p>There is one point that you missed, one that just about everyone I&#8217;ve seen commenting on this very good news has missed.  What the plaintiffs had to give up in order to get what they wanted.  According to what I&#8217;ve read, there was one thing that the VA demanded . . . documents.  My guess is that those documents were the ones that demonstrated anti-Wiccan bias on the part of the Administration and the fact that the VA was acting on that bias.  There are other issues out there (e.g., the Wiccan chaplain who was removed from the Chaplain&#8217;s service after becoming a Wiccan), and while those incidents may not directly deal with the VA, I would imagine those documents would have been a useful investigatory starting point (presuming some sort of legal action were taken).  They&#8217;re not accessible any more.  Not the end of the world of course, and knowing there might be relevant documents out there is still a decent starting point, but it would have been easier to have the starting point in hand.</p>
	<p>Now, I&#8217;m not questioning the decision made by Circle Sanctuary on behalf of and (I would imagine) with Mrs. Stewart.  She had her battle to fight, and it wouldn&#8217;t be fair for anyone to expect her to fight other folks battles as well.  Gods know it must have taken phenomenal strength for her to make it through the ordeal she has already had to endure.</p>
	<p>I just think it&#8217;s interesting and potentially instructive that the one demand the VA would not let go of was for documents.
</p>
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		<title>by: MikeEss</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/04/24/bush-administration-finally-allows-wiccan-pentacle-on-veteran-memorials/#comment-395643</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 19:03:53 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/04/24/bush-administration-finally-allows-wiccan-pentacle-on-veteran-memorials/#comment-395643</guid>
					<description>Melaka, you're in luck:  
&lt;a href=&quot;http://pandagon.net/2007/04/12/how-to-write-good-html-version/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://pandagon.net/2007/04/12/how-to-write-good-html-version/&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Melaka, you&#8217;re in luck:<br />
<a href="http://pandagon.net/2007/04/12/how-to-write-good-html-version/" rel="nofollow"><a href='http://pandagon.net/2007/04/12/how-to-write-good-html-version/' rel='nofollow'>http://pandagon.net/2007/04/12/how-to-write-good-html-version/</a></a>
</p>
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		<title>by: wildstarryskies</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/04/24/bush-administration-finally-allows-wiccan-pentacle-on-veteran-memorials/#comment-395642</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 24 Apr 2007 19:02:16 +0100</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/04/24/bush-administration-finally-allows-wiccan-pentacle-on-veteran-memorials/#comment-395642</guid>
					<description>I posted a comment under &quot;Melaka&quot; *trying* to use HTML, but I messed up.

can anybody just PLeASE post me what html tags to use and how to use them? 

here is what i need 

blockquoute
underline
bold
italics

that's all i wnat to know!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I posted a comment under &#8220;Melaka&#8221; *trying* to use HTML, but I messed up.</p>
	<p>can anybody just PLeASE post me what html tags to use and how to use them? </p>
	<p>here is what i need </p>
	<p>blockquoute<br />
underline<br />
bold<br />
italics</p>
	<p>that&#8217;s all i wnat to know!!!
</p>
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