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	<title>Comments on: Jay-walking makes the ladies crazy</title>
	<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/01/22/jay-walking-makes-the-ladies-crazy/</link>
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	<pubDate>Wed, 09 Dec 2009 06:11:39 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>by: southern students for choice</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/01/22/jay-walking-makes-the-ladies-crazy/#comment-350077</link>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jan 2007 05:17:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/01/22/jay-walking-makes-the-ladies-crazy/#comment-350077</guid>
					<description>Hello, my name is Burl, Iâ€™m a pro-choice activist and on the board of southern students for choice, a 19-year-old group with some experience in working with young people in conservative communities.  Iâ€™m also a guy, so I have in a few ways a different and hopefully helpful perspective on the issues being discussed here.

First, from my understanding of the hypothetical Post-Abortion Syndrome (PAS), I donâ€™t believe there is such a thing as PAS.  I can argue that the evidence doesnâ€™t support it from different perspectives, but since Iâ€™m a pro-choice activist, a guy, and Iâ€™m not a scientist, it could be said that I have a bias against fairly evaluating the validity of various PAS studies and diagnostic criteria.  But if PAS was a valid syndrome, I suppose it could be listed as something like a DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual) mental health â€œdisorderâ€?, kind of like manic-depression or PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder), to give two examples of what most people would agree are scientifically valid, psychatrically useful definitions of mental disorders.  I think even a layperson can read the DSM and gain a helpful understanding of psychiatric disorders, especially if one is careful not to use it as some sort of field manual for unprofessional labeling and diagnosis.  If you look at what is alleged to be PAS as a hypothesized mental health disorder, and compare it to other mental health disorders, I think itâ€™s easier to see that so-called PAS is all the more not likely to be a valid psychiatric disorder.  If I can see that, even as a guy and with all of the above disclaimers applying to me, I think itâ€™s all the easier to convincingly debunk PAS and the agenda behind it.

But keep an eye on the movement behind PAS, people.  I think that what was once alleged to be â€œPost-Abortion Syndromeâ€? may someday be similarly alleged in a hypothesized â€œPost-Emergency Contraception Syndromeâ€? (PECS).  

I donâ€™t think that itâ€™s likely that allegations along those lines are likely to lead to a significant effort to outright criminalize contraception any more than anti-choice efforts are likely to lead to abortion bans or overturning what little is left of Roe v Wade.  Most antis actually do support abortion rights of a sort, namely for rape, incest, and â€œmeâ€?.  There are a lot of bureaucrats, even avowed pro-choice allies, who in a perverse way benefit from restrictive laws (â€œreasonableâ€? restrictions, in other words), as it makes them money.  There are a lot more bureaucrats making money off of enforcing those regulations than there are abortion providers making money off of abortion, right?.

For adult women, there is a strong lobby against laws that in practice actually block (â€œunduly burdenâ€?, in the language of the 1992 Supreme Court Casey decision) adult women with some money and health insurance from getting an abortion, as even waiting periods and biased informed consent laws donâ€™t really stop most determined adult women who want an abortion from getting one.  But for minors especially, outside of the few states where there are no parental notification laws thereâ€™s little argument being put up anymore outside of fundraising appeals from pro-choice groups against parental notification or consent laws.  I think that especially since the 1992 Casey decision, the idea that laws that might impair competent young and poor women from getting an abortion should be subject to â€œstrict scrutinyâ€? and overturned has all but vanished, even in the pro-choice community.

The lack of mention of the focus and impact of anti-choice efforts on young and poor women, even in otherwise apparently pro-choice articles like the NYT Magazine article discussed here (and most of the pro-choice comments Iâ€™ve read), and the persistent successful anti-choice efforts to hype PAS makes me very concerned that we see someday to allege negative effects from emergency contraception (EC) â€“ perhaps a PECS? â€“ which may influence restricting minorâ€™s and poor womenâ€™s access to EC and to a fair choice among an increasing diversity of contraception options â€“ options that older and more privileged women (and men) will continue to have access to, but which Iâ€™m afraid young and poor women may see themselves shut out from.

I hope a controversy over â€œPECSâ€? â€“ a term I invented which Iâ€™m pretty sure the antis havenâ€™t even proposed yet â€“ I hope it doesnâ€™t happen.  Iâ€™ll do what I can to rebut it if it does happen.  But if it happens, Iâ€™m sure it will be very carefully targeted on young and poor women.  And Iâ€™ll probably wish that my pro-choice colleagues would speak more directly, with commitment, on how it affects those young and poor women.

And I think Iâ€™ll be able to say for sure, you read of â€œPECSâ€? here first.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Hello, my name is Burl, Iâ€™m a pro-choice activist and on the board of southern students for choice, a 19-year-old group with some experience in working with young people in conservative communities.  Iâ€™m also a guy, so I have in a few ways a different and hopefully helpful perspective on the issues being discussed here.</p>
	<p>First, from my understanding of the hypothetical Post-Abortion Syndrome (PAS), I donâ€™t believe there is such a thing as PAS.  I can argue that the evidence doesnâ€™t support it from different perspectives, but since Iâ€™m a pro-choice activist, a guy, and Iâ€™m not a scientist, it could be said that I have a bias against fairly evaluating the validity of various PAS studies and diagnostic criteria.  But if PAS was a valid syndrome, I suppose it could be listed as something like a DSM (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual) mental health â€œdisorderâ€?, kind of like manic-depression or PTSD (post-traumatic stress disorder), to give two examples of what most people would agree are scientifically valid, psychatrically useful definitions of mental disorders.  I think even a layperson can read the DSM and gain a helpful understanding of psychiatric disorders, especially if one is careful not to use it as some sort of field manual for unprofessional labeling and diagnosis.  If you look at what is alleged to be PAS as a hypothesized mental health disorder, and compare it to other mental health disorders, I think itâ€™s easier to see that so-called PAS is all the more not likely to be a valid psychiatric disorder.  If I can see that, even as a guy and with all of the above disclaimers applying to me, I think itâ€™s all the easier to convincingly debunk PAS and the agenda behind it.</p>
	<p>But keep an eye on the movement behind PAS, people.  I think that what was once alleged to be â€œPost-Abortion Syndromeâ€? may someday be similarly alleged in a hypothesized â€œPost-Emergency Contraception Syndromeâ€? (PECS).  </p>
	<p>I donâ€™t think that itâ€™s likely that allegations along those lines are likely to lead to a significant effort to outright criminalize contraception any more than anti-choice efforts are likely to lead to abortion bans or overturning what little is left of Roe v Wade.  Most antis actually do support abortion rights of a sort, namely for rape, incest, and â€œmeâ€?.  There are a lot of bureaucrats, even avowed pro-choice allies, who in a perverse way benefit from restrictive laws (â€œreasonableâ€? restrictions, in other words), as it makes them money.  There are a lot more bureaucrats making money off of enforcing those regulations than there are abortion providers making money off of abortion, right?.</p>
	<p>For adult women, there is a strong lobby against laws that in practice actually block (â€œunduly burdenâ€?, in the language of the 1992 Supreme Court Casey decision) adult women with some money and health insurance from getting an abortion, as even waiting periods and biased informed consent laws donâ€™t really stop most determined adult women who want an abortion from getting one.  But for minors especially, outside of the few states where there are no parental notification laws thereâ€™s little argument being put up anymore outside of fundraising appeals from pro-choice groups against parental notification or consent laws.  I think that especially since the 1992 Casey decision, the idea that laws that might impair competent young and poor women from getting an abortion should be subject to â€œstrict scrutinyâ€? and overturned has all but vanished, even in the pro-choice community.</p>
	<p>The lack of mention of the focus and impact of anti-choice efforts on young and poor women, even in otherwise apparently pro-choice articles like the NYT Magazine article discussed here (and most of the pro-choice comments Iâ€™ve read), and the persistent successful anti-choice efforts to hype PAS makes me very concerned that we see someday to allege negative effects from emergency contraception (EC) â€“ perhaps a PECS? â€“ which may influence restricting minorâ€™s and poor womenâ€™s access to EC and to a fair choice among an increasing diversity of contraception options â€“ options that older and more privileged women (and men) will continue to have access to, but which Iâ€™m afraid young and poor women may see themselves shut out from.</p>
	<p>I hope a controversy over â€œPECSâ€? â€“ a term I invented which Iâ€™m pretty sure the antis havenâ€™t even proposed yet â€“ I hope it doesnâ€™t happen.  Iâ€™ll do what I can to rebut it if it does happen.  But if it happens, Iâ€™m sure it will be very carefully targeted on young and poor women.  And Iâ€™ll probably wish that my pro-choice colleagues would speak more directly, with commitment, on how it affects those young and poor women.</p>
	<p>And I think Iâ€™ll be able to say for sure, you read of â€œPECSâ€? here first.
</p>
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		<title>by: Walking &raquo; Blog Archives &raquo; TAM: Chihuly Walking Tour requires ID</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/01/22/jay-walking-makes-the-ladies-crazy/#comment-349960</link>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jan 2007 18:54:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/01/22/jay-walking-makes-the-ladies-crazy/#comment-349960</guid>
					<description>[...] Something (among many things) that irks me about the post-abortion depression is that people use it to essentially say that women who don t carry to term and give birth like good little fetal incubators are going to suffer from &amp;#8230; &amp;#8211; More &amp;#8211; [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>[&#8230;] Something (among many things) that irks me about the post-abortion depression is that people use it to essentially say that women who don t carry to term and give birth like good little fetal incubators are going to suffer from &#8230; &#8211; More &#8211; [&#8230;]
</p>
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		<title>by: biosparite</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/01/22/jay-walking-makes-the-ladies-crazy/#comment-349661</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jan 2007 16:22:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/01/22/jay-walking-makes-the-ladies-crazy/#comment-349661</guid>
					<description>In the cathedral near the Plaza in Santa Fe, NM, my ex-wife and I liked to attend Christmas services while on vacation though neither of us was Catholic, and I am an &quot;unbeliever&quot; as characterized by religious righters here in my home town in Texas. And the service was fun since the interior of the building is beautiful and interesting. However, on our 1998 visit a priest bitterly inveighed against women who had had abortions and prayed to God for their healing, since they were inevitably damaged, or so he said. It was the worst humbug I could think of on Christmas day, and we never returned. Like George W. Bush, the priest did not think; he simply believed. Talk about indoor pollution, this  cleric was unable to get into the spirit of the season, such as it is, and leave the hate-mongering against liberated women behind. I hope he found coal in his stocking. Carefully-validated studies on the effects of abortion, if any, will never have any impact on authoritarian wingnuts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>In the cathedral near the Plaza in Santa Fe, NM, my ex-wife and I liked to attend Christmas services while on vacation though neither of us was Catholic, and I am an &#8220;unbeliever&#8221; as characterized by religious righters here in my home town in Texas. And the service was fun since the interior of the building is beautiful and interesting. However, on our 1998 visit a priest bitterly inveighed against women who had had abortions and prayed to God for their healing, since they were inevitably damaged, or so he said. It was the worst humbug I could think of on Christmas day, and we never returned. Like George W. Bush, the priest did not think; he simply believed. Talk about indoor pollution, this  cleric was unable to get into the spirit of the season, such as it is, and leave the hate-mongering against liberated women behind. I hope he found coal in his stocking. Carefully-validated studies on the effects of abortion, if any, will never have any impact on authoritarian wingnuts.
</p>
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		<title>by: Scarlet</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/01/22/jay-walking-makes-the-ladies-crazy/#comment-349509</link>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jan 2007 07:46:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/01/22/jay-walking-makes-the-ladies-crazy/#comment-349509</guid>
					<description>I think it mostly depends on the circumstances surrounding the abortion. I have a close friend who had a hard time overcoming a depression after her abortion, but I think she would have actually wanted to keep the baby, it's just that she was 19 at the time and breaking up with the father, so the timing was very bad for her. She says she doesn't actually regret it, because she knows it was the right decision to make, but it still haunts her to this day (over 20 years later).
I believe that women who abort because they really don't WANT a baby (either ever or at that particular moment) are less likely to feel bad about it than women who abort because they can't afford to pursue a pregnancy but would have wanted to have the kid if the situation had been different.
I've never had one myself, but I really don't believe I would feel that bad about it since I really don't want kids ever and I would probably feel like an alien had invaded my body until the abortion (which I would choose, without the slightest hesitation).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I think it mostly depends on the circumstances surrounding the abortion. I have a close friend who had a hard time overcoming a depression after her abortion, but I think she would have actually wanted to keep the baby, it&#8217;s just that she was 19 at the time and breaking up with the father, so the timing was very bad for her. She says she doesn&#8217;t actually regret it, because she knows it was the right decision to make, but it still haunts her to this day (over 20 years later).<br />
I believe that women who abort because they really don&#8217;t WANT a baby (either ever or at that particular moment) are less likely to feel bad about it than women who abort because they can&#8217;t afford to pursue a pregnancy but would have wanted to have the kid if the situation had been different.<br />
I&#8217;ve never had one myself, but I really don&#8217;t believe I would feel that bad about it since I really don&#8217;t want kids ever and I would probably feel like an alien had invaded my body until the abortion (which I would choose, without the slightest hesitation).
</p>
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		<title>by: epistemology</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/01/22/jay-walking-makes-the-ladies-crazy/#comment-349383</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jan 2007 20:33:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/01/22/jay-walking-makes-the-ladies-crazy/#comment-349383</guid>
					<description>Do countries with strong anti-abortion movements have more depression post-abortion than countries that don't?

Is there a post-adoption syndrome in women who give their babies up?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Do countries with strong anti-abortion movements have more depression post-abortion than countries that don&#8217;t?</p>
	<p>Is there a post-adoption syndrome in women who give their babies up?
</p>
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		<title>by: Cole Johnson</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/01/22/jay-walking-makes-the-ladies-crazy/#comment-349338</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jan 2007 19:04:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/01/22/jay-walking-makes-the-ladies-crazy/#comment-349338</guid>
					<description>Eyelid writes: &quot;I think itâ€™s legitimate to discount studies that are not statistically valid.&quot;

I agree.  However the study by Fergusson, et al, is not statistically invalid per se.  The research  does have shortcomings which are acknowledged by the (pro-choice) researcher.  Fergusson also cautions against attaching too much significance to the findings.  

This does not mean that his results can be dismissed out of hand.  To do so is to emulate the approach to science (or to intelligence, for that matter) of the Bush administration.  Picking and choosing scientific study results based on a policy bias is a rightwing specialty.  Let's avoid that trap.  In fact, the Fergusson study is fairly insignificant;  we don't need to pretend it doesn't exist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Eyelid writes: &#8220;I think itâ€™s legitimate to discount studies that are not statistically valid.&#8221;</p>
	<p>I agree.  However the study by Fergusson, et al, is not statistically invalid per se.  The research  does have shortcomings which are acknowledged by the (pro-choice) researcher.  Fergusson also cautions against attaching too much significance to the findings.  </p>
	<p>This does not mean that his results can be dismissed out of hand.  To do so is to emulate the approach to science (or to intelligence, for that matter) of the Bush administration.  Picking and choosing scientific study results based on a policy bias is a rightwing specialty.  Let&#8217;s avoid that trap.  In fact, the Fergusson study is fairly insignificant;  we don&#8217;t need to pretend it doesn&#8217;t exist.
</p>
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		<title>by: Broce</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/01/22/jay-walking-makes-the-ladies-crazy/#comment-349334</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jan 2007 18:43:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/01/22/jay-walking-makes-the-ladies-crazy/#comment-349334</guid>
					<description>I've aborted, and no problems. However, I've also dealt with the following in a couple of friend who have terminated pregnancies:

&quot;I'm not depressed. Something must be wrong with me, because I had an abortion and I don't feel guilty. I must be broken somehow.&quot;

I think a great deal of what passes for &quot;post abortion syndrome&quot; is actually women who are *not* upset by the abortion, but are upset because they believe (due to societal roles and expectations) that a &quot;normal, decent woman&quot; would feel guilt and regret.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;ve aborted, and no problems. However, I&#8217;ve also dealt with the following in a couple of friend who have terminated pregnancies:</p>
	<p>&#8220;I&#8217;m not depressed. Something must be wrong with me, because I had an abortion and I don&#8217;t feel guilty. I must be broken somehow.&#8221;</p>
	<p>I think a great deal of what passes for &#8220;post abortion syndrome&#8221; is actually women who are *not* upset by the abortion, but are upset because they believe (due to societal roles and expectations) that a &#8220;normal, decent woman&#8221; would feel guilt and regret.
</p>
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		<title>by: junk science</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/01/22/jay-walking-makes-the-ladies-crazy/#comment-349326</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jan 2007 18:17:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/01/22/jay-walking-makes-the-ladies-crazy/#comment-349326</guid>
					<description>The only answer the fundies need is: so what if getting an abortion causes depression? Life causes depression. Does that mean we shouldn't live?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>The only answer the fundies need is: so what if getting an abortion causes depression? Life causes depression. Does that mean we shouldn&#8217;t live?
</p>
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		<title>by: Eyelid</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/01/22/jay-walking-makes-the-ladies-crazy/#comment-349303</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:21:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/01/22/jay-walking-makes-the-ladies-crazy/#comment-349303</guid>
					<description>I've run an abortion information community and an after-abortion community for several years.  And I had an abortion myself.

My conclusions are that there are a few women - few and far between - who suffer serious regret.  I wouldn't categorize it as a &quot;syndrome&quot; because that's not what it is - not all grief or regret is a psychological disorder.  Those feelings are valid, but they are also rare.  They are much more common in women with other life problems, for obvious reasons.

But the vast majority of women deal just fine.  Often some sadness for the first 1-3 months, often some significant upsetness while the pregnancy hormones clear out, but they are soon back to their normal lives.

Because human beings are resiliant.  We get through things.  We go on.  And sometimes we are even empowered by our experiences.  And also - abortion is not really that bad.  In fact, for many women it is, dare I say, easy.

Feel free to check out my abortion information community for verification: http://www.livejournal.com/users/abortioninfo.  

I refer to that community because there's less in the way of statistical selection; we get women and girls from all walks of life with all different attitudes and emotions.  We have about 80 member-donated stories linked there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>I&#8217;ve run an abortion information community and an after-abortion community for several years.  And I had an abortion myself.</p>
	<p>My conclusions are that there are a few women - few and far between - who suffer serious regret.  I wouldn&#8217;t categorize it as a &#8220;syndrome&#8221; because that&#8217;s not what it is - not all grief or regret is a psychological disorder.  Those feelings are valid, but they are also rare.  They are much more common in women with other life problems, for obvious reasons.</p>
	<p>But the vast majority of women deal just fine.  Often some sadness for the first 1-3 months, often some significant upsetness while the pregnancy hormones clear out, but they are soon back to their normal lives.</p>
	<p>Because human beings are resiliant.  We get through things.  We go on.  And sometimes we are even empowered by our experiences.  And also - abortion is not really that bad.  In fact, for many women it is, dare I say, easy.</p>
	<p>Feel free to check out my abortion information community for verification: <a href='http://www.livejournal.com/users/abortioninfo' rel='nofollow'>http://www.livejournal.com/users/abortioninfo</a>.  </p>
	<p>I refer to that community because there&#8217;s less in the way of statistical selection; we get women and girls from all walks of life with all different attitudes and emotions.  We have about 80 member-donated stories linked there.
</p>
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		<title>by: Eyelid</title>
		<link>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/01/22/jay-walking-makes-the-ladies-crazy/#comment-349300</link>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Jan 2007 17:16:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2007/01/22/jay-walking-makes-the-ladies-crazy/#comment-349300</guid>
					<description>Cole said: &lt;i&gt;However it is not correct to imply that there are no studies linking abortion to post-abortion psychological problems. &lt;/i&gt;

I think it's legitimate to discount studies that are not statistically valid.  Otherwise, I could ask my two friends how they feel, then write that up as a study, and you'd have to acknowledge it as &quot;a study linking X to Y.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[	<p>Cole said: <i>However it is not correct to imply that there are no studies linking abortion to post-abortion psychological problems. </i></p>
	<p>I think it&#8217;s legitimate to discount studies that are not statistically valid.  Otherwise, I could ask my two friends how they feel, then write that up as a study, and you&#8217;d have to acknowledge it as &#8220;a study linking X to Y.&#8221;
</p>
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