Apparently, the Gilliard email that Zengerle quoted from the Townhouse board and claimed to have three sources for, was not written by Steve Gilliard. Ouch. That’s the kind of thing that could kill a journalist’s reputation. While I doubt that Zengerle himself fabricated the email, it seems highly unlikely that three independant sources would verify the same fake email.
Still, as stupid as this TNR vendetta has been - and it goes to show that if you’re gonna smear someone, you really ought to restrain yourself for the sake of credibility. No that’s not true. Republicans get away with all kinds of incredible smears. But anyway, the whole story would have had a greater impact if TNR hadn’t overshot it’s load. The Jerome Armstrong stuff is legitimitely troubling. And I look forward to having a clearer picture of that mess. But the rest of it’s cotton candy.
And check out R. Mildred’s Awesome rant from the other day. I probably don’t agree with all of it. Or maybe I’m just saying that. Saying too much might be dangerous, what with this shadowy cabal working behind the scenes to keep people silent. But, here’s my favorite part:
That Kos is even giving the story time of day is fucking diabolical, considering the only interesting thing about the whole armstrong thingie is not that Armstrong actually shilled stocks for cash, the interesting thing is that A) It wasn’t a huge fucking shock (�Major democratic party blogger used to be a con man for big business� should be a scandal of some kind, if you think about it, but isn’t because it’s armstrong, who is an already proudly out member of the paid-for-dem-hack community), and of course B) That Kos apparently thinks that there is nothing wrong with doing this, like Armstrong is being called on smoking pot in college or something actually minor, this man lied to trusting internet denizens so that they’d basically pump money into his bank account. This puts him on the same level as nigerian scam artists (so if armstrong ever starts a fundraiser to get a trapped Kossack astronaut down from a secret Democratic Party manned satellite, don’t believe him).
The part about Nigerian scam artists just cracks me up.
26 Responses to “A New Twist In The Townhouse Saga”
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What bothers me far more than Jerome’s past is the existence of a secret cabal, which was/is obviously used to decide talking points throughout blog-land.
In retrospect it all makes perfect sense: the Casey support, the Reid cheerleading, the NARAL bashing, and the anti HRC rhetoric vs. the pro-Warner rhetoric. Same points, same wording, often appearing simultaneously on different blogs.
Funny thing is I thought coordinating talking points was a boffo idea back in 2004. But then I thought they would be creating anti-Republican points, not anti-democratic ones.
I’m bothered by that aspect too. I think those guys must have a very different relationship with their readers than what I feel we have with ours here at pandagon. They see theirs as sheep to be manipulated in the same way the national review and their ilk sees their readers, and they need to coordinate how to do the manipulating.
atrios and amato are right. And I retract this and apologize.
“A secret liberal bloggers cabal”? And Pandagon isn’t in it?!
C’mon, Pandagon’s at the very top of Atrios’ non-Philly blog roll. Kos is #2. You’d think that Pandagon would be in this secret cabal, eh?
As for Zengerle’s claims of the “secret cabal”, the “evidence” for that is as follows:
1) A faked e-mail that JZ says was sent by Steve Gilliard, but which a) Zengerle has not produced in its entirety, b) Gilliard says he never sent, c) is not on the Townhouse e-mail list, and d) none of the fifteen people on the Townhouse list who Glenn Greenwald has talked to ever saw it. (Glenn himself is on the list and he says he never saw it.)
2) Insinuations concerning an open SEC investigation, and the desire of Kos to a) avoid being seen as publicly interfering with an SEC investigation, and b) air various charges against Jerome when Jerome cannot legally comment on the pending case. Why publicize charges when the accused isn’t allowed to defend himself? (As Steve Gilliard mentioned the other day on his blog, the SEC doesn’t take kindly to people trying cases in the media. I myself wouldn’t be surprised if the SEC comes after TNR for attempting to do just that.)
(rolls eyes)
Another thing:
If TNR really is Democratic/liberal/whatever, why does TNR condemn liberal bloggers for working together to coordinate messages and framing of various issues? One of the reasons the GOP is successful is that it coordinates messages with various media outlets, of which TNR is one.
And why are so many liberals falling for TNR’s implying that “liberal blogs organizing for a specific goal = bad”?
Same points, same wording, often appearing simultaneously on different blogs.
I know — it’s almost as though a small group of people actually _agree_ on selected issues and tactics and _write_ about those issues and tactics in order to distribute them widely to _other_ people! Dirty, dirty.
[…] Jedmunds at Pandagon on what I am now calling: […]
jedmunds: you may want to update your post per Gilliard’s post this morning:
“To be fair, I told Glenn I disagreed with the characterization of it being false, because I may have express some kind of sentiment close to that. The issue to me is not that Zengerle created it out of whole cloth, but if he got it from a source that he was too lazy and sloppy to confirm it with me. Let me be clear, I didn’t deny writing the e-mail. I said that I had no record of writing such an e-mail with that phrase, to the list on that day.”
Why are so many liberals “falling” for TNR? That’s not really the issue. The Townhouse group decided to make life “easier” on themselves by avoiding the public information disclosed in the NYPost/NYTimes (behind TimesSelect firewall). Small donations by netroots (which Townhallers leveraged into media exposure for themselves) operates on a trust basis. Those who agreed to try and deflect public disclosure concerning a principle of the ‘netroots movement’ violated that basic trust with readership. Foolish. Liberals did nothing wrong here.
People sending emails to each other with their thoughts and opinions in them is not a cabal–it happens all the time. If anybody here has a n email list–I have one with twenty some family members on it–you know what I’m talking about.
Ok not exactly the right forum for this, and not exactly to the point, but I’ve always wanted to say this: Jerome fucking Armstrong was the guy who, on myDD, predicted up to the dirty rotten bitter end a Democratic win in the disastrous year of 2004 (look it up) and THE FACT that this guy is now a PAID employee of the freaking Democratic Party is a hell of a lot more scary to me than the fact that he was once involved with some sort of hanky-panky with the stock market.
I mean, couldn’t they find someone to pay who was RIGHT, once in a while? I fear that rewarding people with tin political ears is just par for the course, and as long as it remains so, we are FUCKED.
Thank you.
Sorry. That was 2002. So many disastrous years, I get confused sometimes.
People still read Kos and myDD? Their politics are too middle of the road and DC insider for my taste (though the Daily Kos Diaries can be good).
The idea that Kos runs the lefty blogosphere with an iron fist cracks me up.
The leaked email in which Kos suggested people not respond to the allegations against Armstrong is being cited as if it were a threat. The email is all over now, so anyone can read it. Therein, Kos suggests that it would be better to ignore the Armstrong stuff.
Why? Because the NYT Opinionator dredged up a six-year-old story about Armstrong and raised in the context of the blogosphere at large, right after the YearlyKos. Then the NY Post ran a similar story. The established media feel threatened by the blogosphere. The Republicans can smell their fear. You don’t have to be a strategic genius or a paranoid to anticipate the general trend: Pushback.
FTR, Iocaste says everything that needs saying about the substance of the allegations against Armstrong. If they’re true, they’re sleazy as hell. They’re also six years old. I don’t think anyone should be going out of their way to defend Armstrong at this point.
In the email, Kos was speaking candidly to people who know Armstrong as a friend and netroots movement member, people who might be tempted to jump into the fray on his behalf, and thereby attract more attention to the issue. Excessive defensiveness only makes it look like the liberal blogosphere has some kind of stake in Armstrong’s sketchy financial dealings. We don’t.
Kos’s advice was smart. Let this go. Let Armstrong speak for himself, if and when he’s at liberty to do. Don’t call more attention to this embarrassing episode in a misguided and defensive attempt to support a colleague. It’s not a conspiracy, it’s just reasonable. Ultimately, it’s Jerome’s problem, not ours.
“Ultimately, it’s Jerome’s problem, not ours.”
Stock touts are everybody’s problem. It really galls me to see liberals forget that these folks are among the lowest forms of Internet-enabled crook, simply because someone they admire has been accused of doing it by the SEC.
Are you really in the “netroots” to replace their DeLays and Abramoffs with some of ours? Because that’s what you get with look-the-other-way politics.
People sending emails to each other with their thoughts and opinions in them is not a cabal–it happens all the time. If anybody here has a n email list–I have one with twenty some family members on it–you know what I’m talking about.”
“If TNR really is Democratic/liberal/whatever, why does TNR condemn liberal bloggers for working together to coordinate messages and framing of various issues?”
So . . . are they just buddies/ family members who like to e-mail each other or are they coordinating messages? ‘Cause that latter description smacks of the good-old-days when a bunch of elite men privately anointed candidates in back rooms.
The idea that Kos runs the lefty blogosphere with an iron fist cracks me up.
That’s just a red herring.
It’s a diversion from the real issue that’s trying to be swept under a rug, which is that many of the top liberal bloggers have become the insulated, paranoid, incestual punditocracy they’ve made a living attacking.
Who’s looking the other way? Jerome has been kicked out of the markets forever and the SEC may take further action against him. These alleged infractions took place six years ago, before anyone had ever heard of Jerome Armstrong or the netroots movement.
Now, Jerome’s six-year-old business dealings are being shoved in my face by the Opinionator and the NY Post in connection with YearlyKos and the liberal blogosphere at large. I had nothing to do with any of this, and neither did anyone else in the netroots.
The enemies of the blogosphere want to use Jerome’s case as a metaphor for our entire community. Notice how the wingnuts are calling this “Kosola”–blurring in their tiny minds the accusations against Jerome with Kos’s advice to his colleagues not to fall on their swords for Jerome. They’re trying to smear Kos as a bully. In fact, he just threw his two cents into a conversation.
So, what are we supposed to do? Defend Armstrong for the alleged stock touting? Not a chance. If I thought the coverage was unfair, I’d say so. In fact, I think it was fair, if politically motivated.
The unprincipled thing to do would be to lash out at the reporters who broke this story. The smart thing for the movement is to let Armstrong take his own lumps. I’m not wasting valuable news cycles defending some guy I don’t know for alleged infractions that took place before even knew what a blog was, and for which he’s already been disciplined.
I’ll admit, I thought that Townhouse thing was a bad idea from the get-go, but this entire “controversy” is just silly.
By any chance, do you happen to be a member of the townhouse list lindsay?
Gayle
the family email list might not be the bes example–but regarding the fact that Zengerle and others seem to see a conspiracy in the fact that it exists at all I think makes it a bit relevant.
And I think you have to admit that the problem isn’t whehter or not they were cooridinating messages–what the hell would be wrong or strange about a a group of like-minded political people coordinating messages?–the problem would be what messages (”okay, now we’re all going to say that I’m the greatest lover in the world…”) and whether there was coercion by a member about what the others say.
The second one speaks to the first, and demolishes it. Am I supposed to believe that Steve Gilliard would keep his trap shut about something because Markos told him too? Too fucking ridiculous.
um, so colleagues shdn’t have listservs? correct me if i’m wrong but that sounds like what the townhouse thing is. most professions have them. and they’re pretty useful for organizing and keeping members abreast of important issues . i.e. in the legeal field: huge listserv available for crim defense attys like the federal habeas list or small one like a local chapter of the nat’l lawyers guild. helps attys stay on top of legal issues that happen all over the country, cases you need to be keeping your eye on, etc. and by a clear miracle you even get to know what your colleagues opinions on things are, how you might use new cases in the cases you are currently working on. shaping how we frame the issues in various jurisdictions, argue things, facts that are important. cabalists, all of them.
seriously, what a clown show. if there are bloggers that have got such a problem with armstrong, how about adressing, you know, the actual story. while kos may have sent some email to his merry band of cabalists, it hasn’t really stopped anyone from putting their two cents in. i bet if you wanted to, you cd actually write a post about why you think armstrong sucks and why this means he should be shunned by the progressive community or whatever. this whining about people emailing each other is a joke. methinks, it’s more fun to just snark.
Jerome has been kicked out of the markets forever and the SEC may take further action against him. These alleged infractions took place six years ago, before anyone had ever heard of Jerome Armstrong or the netroots movement.
Woah, Lindsay, so it doesn’t matter that he committed a criminal ethical violation which involves honest representation on the net? Bullshit. If it wasn’t someone on your side, you’d be singing a far different tune. Since when was “that was a long time ago” every a valid excuse for the Republican side? We’ve said time again that one’s history proves one’s character and if it applies to them, it applies to us, especially when the character involved wasn’t honest or forthcoming about it.
It also irritates me that Kos makes the incredibly stupid move of asking people to “starve this story of oxygen” and be given a free pass about it. It doesn’t matter if he has any financial control or not. In fact, given he’s making an largely emotional and strategic appeal, like the blogging left is the thin blue line or something, is even more bullshit.
One of the reasons the left doesn’t behave like Karl Rove is that we aren’t sociopathic enough to do it without getting caught. The idea is see what rhetoric and tactics of your oppents you can use AGAINST them, not to run out and imitate them in half arsed way. And that’s what this Townhouse group appears to be. That whole sneaky, back door nod and wink shit that makes most on the left DESPISE the GOP and the DLC and now that Kos is trying the same thing for his pal it really bothers me.
Soft, I can’t say that I think Townhouse tells us anything we didn’t already know about the folks on it, which is that they view themselves as a club dedicated to remaking the Democratic party how they want it. The secret part of it I’m just not so sure about. I asked around a few months ago about it and found that it wasn’t like you couldn’t just ask to be on it if you want. I figured I didn’t want to, so I forgot about it.
[…] Duncan says : "The notion that Markos is sitting around telling bloggers what to do is just ludicrous. There are bloggers who spend time try to herd the cats somewhat through organization and discussion - not through any top-down control efforts - but Markos isn’t even one of those people. And, contra Jedmunds, this doesn’t involve attempts to manipulate the "sheep" who are our readers, but rather how to sometimes influence the wider media-poltical bloodstream through emphasis and fact-based messaging. You know, sometimes bloggers discuss stuff. The horrors….read on" […]
Look at all the opportunistic trolls that have swept in trying to take advantage of this hoo-ha.
So having a semi-private mailing list is elitist? Geez Louise.
There is nothing, NOTHING, the GOP likes better than to trick us all into clubbing ourselves to death with a set of bogus “ethics rules” (again, since when is having a private mailing list — or wanting to form a coherent message, to be able to say that we STAND for something — a bad thing?) that they themselves have no intention of following. Congratulations, everyone who fell for this — or who let their envy of the A-listers cause them to fall for it.
For those who are at least semi-interested in facts, Steve D put up a very thorough dissection of what Armstrong did and what it means legally on DailyKos as a diary a day or two ago. It spells everything out and it is, to this non-legalistic scholar, about as good and well written a legal analysis as I have read. My thinking is that before discussing this any further you should all go over and read it.
I really worry about the holier than though stuff I am reading on this list (I don’t think I will be returning). Jerome Armstrong was broke and he made a mistake. I have to say I have probably done worst things in my past. Pretty much everybody I know has some similar stuff in their closet. I don’t think it’s something Jerome is very proud of, but like for all of us, his past is his past. He was, according to the analysis, a very small fish in a relatively small scam, and he made very little money from it. It was just a got knocking around, trying to earn a buck, not thinking about he ethical implications. I am frightened by the unforgiving nature of you people, and the willingness to smear somebody you don’t even know just because you were given the opporunity. And you do not take the time to find out the facts. I am embarassed for you.