Comments on: NFP, the #1 killer of “children” in America http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/05/25/nfp-the-1-killer-of-children-in-america/ Just another WordPress weblog Mon, 09 Nov 2009 19:28:10 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.1-alpha by: Ales Rarus - A Rare Bird, A Strange Duck, One Funky Blog » Investigating NFP: The Great Embryo Killer? (Part II) http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/05/25/nfp-the-1-killer-of-children-in-america/#comment-102741 Tue, 06 Jun 2006 18:06:37 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/05/25/nfp-the-1-killer-of-children-in-america/#comment-102741 [...] A commenter at Pandagon (language warning) believes that such a reductio is the true aim of this paper, rather than serious discussion of the ethical issues involved. It is important to note that by the end of the article, Bovens has subtly changed his argument. Whether NFP causes additional spontaneous abortions due to its rules is no longer of paramount importance. He needs only to point out that in typical use, NFP fails far more often than the Pill does. He’s pointing out that if you believe embryos should be protected from dying unneccessarily, you should choose the method of birth control that results in the fewest embryo deaths. Based on failure rates, the Pill fits the bill and thus Bovens believes he has reduced pro-life arguments against abortifacient devices and medicines to absurdity. Biologist PZ Meyers, who blogs at Pharyngula, summarizesBovens implied argumentwell. [...] […] A commenter at Pandagon (language warning) believes that such a reductio is the true aim of this paper, rather than serious discussion of the ethical issues involved. It is important to note that by the end of the article, Bovens has subtly changed his argument. Whether NFP causes additional spontaneous abortions due to its rules is no longer of paramount importance. He needs only to point out that in typical use, NFP fails far more often than the Pill does. He’s pointing out that if you believe embryos should be protected from dying unneccessarily, you should choose the method of birth control that results in the fewest embryo deaths. Based on failure rates, the Pill fits the bill and thus Bovens believes he has reduced pro-life arguments against abortifacient devices and medicines to absurdity. Biologist PZ Meyers, who blogs at Pharyngula, summarizesBovens implied argumentwell. […]

]]> by: Ales Rarus - A Rare Bird, A Strange Duck, One Funky Blog » Investigating NFP: The Great Embryo Killer? http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/05/25/nfp-the-1-killer-of-children-in-america/#comment-97475 Tue, 30 May 2006 23:15:49 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/05/25/nfp-the-1-killer-of-children-in-america/#comment-97475 [...] A commenter at Pandagon (language warning) believes that such a reductio is the true aim of this paper, rather than serious discussion of the ethical issues involved. It is important to note that by the end of the article, Bovens has subtly changed his argument. Whether NFP causes additional spontaneous abortions due to its rules is no longer of paramount importance. He needs only to point out that in typical use, NFP fails far more often than the Pill does. He’s pointing out that if you believe embryos should be protected from dying unneccessarily, you should choose the method of birth control that results in the fewest embryo deaths. Based on failure rates, the Pill fits the bill and thus Bovens believes he has reduced pro-life arguments against abortifacient devices and medicines to absurdity. Biologist PZ Meyers, who blogs at Pharyngula, summarizes Bovens implied argument well. [...] […] A commenter at Pandagon (language warning) believes that such a reductio is the true aim of this paper, rather than serious discussion of the ethical issues involved. It is important to note that by the end of the article, Bovens has subtly changed his argument. Whether NFP causes additional spontaneous abortions due to its rules is no longer of paramount importance. He needs only to point out that in typical use, NFP fails far more often than the Pill does. He’s pointing out that if you believe embryos should be protected from dying unneccessarily, you should choose the method of birth control that results in the fewest embryo deaths. Based on failure rates, the Pill fits the bill and thus Bovens believes he has reduced pro-life arguments against abortifacient devices and medicines to absurdity. Biologist PZ Meyers, who blogs at Pharyngula, summarizes Bovens implied argument well. […]

]]> by: Buzz http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/05/25/nfp-the-1-killer-of-children-in-america/#comment-94088 Sat, 27 May 2006 09:16:42 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/05/25/nfp-the-1-killer-of-children-in-america/#comment-94088 Actually, I think the 50% survival rate is a rather optimistic number. I looked this up once, and found some reproductive expert stating in an interview that under the <i>best</i> of conditions, only one-third of all conceived embryos ever make it to term. And then there are also some (a distinct but rabid minority, admittedly), who claim that the way an IUD works is by preventing a fertilized embryo from adhering to the uterine wall. So depending on how you look at it, some forms of birth control <i>are</i> little more than mass murder to the winger set. Actually, I think the 50% survival rate is a rather optimistic number. I looked this up once, and found some reproductive expert stating in an interview that under the best of conditions, only one-third of all conceived embryos ever make it to term.

And then there are also some (a distinct but rabid minority, admittedly), who claim that the way an IUD works is by preventing a fertilized embryo from adhering to the uterine wall. So depending on how you look at it, some forms of birth control are little more than mass murder to the winger set.

]]> by: WereBear http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/05/25/nfp-the-1-killer-of-children-in-america/#comment-93095 Fri, 26 May 2006 16:53:20 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/05/25/nfp-the-1-killer-of-children-in-america/#comment-93095 I recommend the "lick a transparent triangle" method (there are many on the web.) It's great to see the little fern shapes that say "You're ovulating!" A wonderful teaching tool for teens as well. http://www.craigmedical.com/ovulens.htm What this highlights for me is, once again, the knee-knocking fear of taking responsibilities for anything they might do: thus, the over-riding compulsion to "leave it to the Lord." I recommend the “lick a transparent triangle” method (there are many on the web.) It’s great to see the little fern shapes that say “You’re ovulating!” A wonderful teaching tool for teens as well.

http://www.craigmedical.com/ovulens.htm

What this highlights for me is, once again, the knee-knocking fear of taking responsibilities for anything they might do: thus, the over-riding compulsion to “leave it to the Lord.”

]]> by: Frederick http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/05/25/nfp-the-1-killer-of-children-in-america/#comment-93056 Fri, 26 May 2006 15:56:08 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/05/25/nfp-the-1-killer-of-children-in-america/#comment-93056 Hey, I've been involved in two fetus-killings, but I blame God, far and away the world's leading abortionist. My wife and I made three babies that we know of (the ones that implanted). The first became our daughter, but the second and third ended in miscarriages. Thanks a lot, Jesus! Hey, I’ve been involved in two fetus-killings, but I blame God, far and away the world’s leading abortionist. My wife and I made three babies that we know of (the ones that implanted). The first became our daughter, but the second and third ended in miscarriages. Thanks a lot, Jesus!

]]> by: Wishy Washy http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/05/25/nfp-the-1-killer-of-children-in-america/#comment-92894 Fri, 26 May 2006 10:31:01 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/05/25/nfp-the-1-killer-of-children-in-america/#comment-92894 I have always wondered just how in the hell wingnuts got around the "failure to implant naturally" business. I love to torture myself by constantly taking down "it's a baby at conception so EC kills a BABY!!!" arguments by pointing out that not all conceptions will implant anyway. No one ever responds, or if they do it's to say that if God wills it, it's fine, but if a human (woman, remember) intervenes with HUMAN intentions, then it's murder. Which brings us right back around to: we must all consciously, constantly exhibit a deep yearning to be pregnant at all times. *sigh* What really freaks me out is the notion of little winged fertilized egg-souls wending their way up to Heaven out of the uteri of countless pro-life, trying-to-conceive women every single month. Seems awfully, awfully wasteful to me. I have always wondered just how in the hell wingnuts got around the “failure to implant naturally” business. I love to torture myself by constantly taking down “it’s a baby at conception so EC kills a BABY!!!” arguments by pointing out that not all conceptions will implant anyway. No one ever responds, or if they do it’s to say that if God wills it, it’s fine, but if a human (woman, remember) intervenes with HUMAN intentions, then it’s murder.

Which brings us right back around to: we must all consciously, constantly exhibit a deep yearning to be pregnant at all times. *sigh*

What really freaks me out is the notion of little winged fertilized egg-souls wending their way up to Heaven out of the uteri of countless pro-life, trying-to-conceive women every single month. Seems awfully, awfully wasteful to me.

]]> by: Jan Andrea http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/05/25/nfp-the-1-killer-of-children-in-america/#comment-92883 Fri, 26 May 2006 10:20:08 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/05/25/nfp-the-1-killer-of-children-in-america/#comment-92883 We did NFP when looking to conceive our kids, but more than that, I thought it was a great way to understand what was going on in my body. I'm one of those women who doesn't do well on the pill -- it made me moody, depressive, took away my sexual appetite almost completely (how's that for contraception?!), and I gained 10 lbs/year while I was on it. So when I went off the pill, I bought a copy of "Taking Charge of Your Fertility", and I'd really recommend it for all women from their first menstrual period on -- I plan to give a copy to my daughter when she turns 10 or 11, so she's aware of what's going on in her body and can avoid the "Oh no, unexpected period!" business that most teenagers live with. We still had sex when I was fertile, but used condoms during that time, and then we knew we were safe for not using condoms when I wasn't fertile. Very freeing. It was also great for me because I had long, weird cycles -- they'd be as short as 30 days or as long as 84 days (I kid you not -- 84 days!). If I hadn't been charting -- which takes all of five minutes a day -- I would have thought many times over that I was pregnant, and wasted all kinds of money on pregnancy tests. Turns out I was just not ovulating on day 14, but sometimes went as late as day 70 (for that long cycle). Also helped me find out that I had a short luteal phase, so that when we did TTC our second child, I was able to get a progesterone supplement that would help keep the zygote in place until it could implant and start pumping out its own stay-put hormones. Anyway, what I'm trying to get at is that NFP works for a lot of us, not just wingers, and even sex-loving atheists can get something out of it :) We did NFP when looking to conceive our kids, but more than that, I thought it was a great way to understand what was going on in my body. I’m one of those women who doesn’t do well on the pill — it made me moody, depressive, took away my sexual appetite almost completely (how’s that for contraception?!), and I gained 10 lbs/year while I was on it. So when I went off the pill, I bought a copy of “Taking Charge of Your Fertility”, and I’d really recommend it for all women from their first menstrual period on — I plan to give a copy to my daughter when she turns 10 or 11, so she’s aware of what’s going on in her body and can avoid the “Oh no, unexpected period!” business that most teenagers live with.

We still had sex when I was fertile, but used condoms during that time, and then we knew we were safe for not using condoms when I wasn’t fertile. Very freeing. It was also great for me because I had long, weird cycles — they’d be as short as 30 days or as long as 84 days (I kid you not — 84 days!). If I hadn’t been charting — which takes all of five minutes a day — I would have thought many times over that I was pregnant, and wasted all kinds of money on pregnancy tests. Turns out I was just not ovulating on day 14, but sometimes went as late as day 70 (for that long cycle). Also helped me find out that I had a short luteal phase, so that when we did TTC our second child, I was able to get a progesterone supplement that would help keep the zygote in place until it could implant and start pumping out its own stay-put hormones.

Anyway, what I’m trying to get at is that NFP works for a lot of us, not just wingers, and even sex-loving atheists can get something out of it :)

]]> by: Ms Kate http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/05/25/nfp-the-1-killer-of-children-in-america/#comment-92830 Fri, 26 May 2006 09:22:11 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/05/25/nfp-the-1-killer-of-children-in-america/#comment-92830 Gyratory, we actually used NFP mixed with condoms for a couple of years. It was a trade off between condoms all the time and other forms of birth control which were not working. Being that I create and play with data for a living, this worked very well for us and I found out some interesting things about my body and its patterns that I never noticed before. When it came time to actually make a baby, we did. When I showed my charts to my midwife, she asked for the spreadsheet set up for her infertility patients to use, and I did a presentation on how I set them up. I wouldn't recomend NFP alone as family planning, however. When that temperature spikes, it isn't time to not have sex it is time to chase him down, tie him up, and have your way. I can't see how anyone can avoid that without going on a week long trip each month. Gyratory, we actually used NFP mixed with condoms for a couple of years. It was a trade off between condoms all the time and other forms of birth control which were not working.

Being that I create and play with data for a living, this worked very well for us and I found out some interesting things about my body and its patterns that I never noticed before. When it came time to actually make a baby, we did.

When I showed my charts to my midwife, she asked for the spreadsheet set up for her infertility patients to use, and I did a presentation on how I set them up.

I wouldn’t recomend NFP alone as family planning, however. When that temperature spikes, it isn’t time to not have sex it is time to chase him down, tie him up, and have your way. I can’t see how anyone can avoid that without going on a week long trip each month.

]]> by: Gyratory Circus http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/05/25/nfp-the-1-killer-of-children-in-america/#comment-92671 Fri, 26 May 2006 07:01:29 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/05/25/nfp-the-1-killer-of-children-in-america/#comment-92671 Just wanted to clarify - NFP is NOT THE SAME THING AS THE RHYTHM METHOD. NFP/FAM - you take your temperature first thing in the morning before you get out of bed (called the basal body temp, or BBT), and chart it to look for hormonal changes. You also pay attention to the consistency of your cervical fluid. The more like eggwhite it is, the closer you are to ovulation. You're aware of your fertility status *for that cycle*. It is very very effective for both achieving and avoiding pregnancy if done correctly. Rhythm method - no temperature taking, no paying attention to cervical fluid. Basically, you say, "I usually have a 28 day cycle, so that must mean I ovulate around day 14" You're guessing, without any measurable proof, and of course, eventually you'll have a cycle that's not "normal" and you'll get pregnant. Just wanted to clarify - NFP is NOT THE SAME THING AS THE RHYTHM METHOD.

NFP/FAM - you take your temperature first thing in the morning before you get out of bed (called the basal body temp, or BBT), and chart it to look for hormonal changes. You also pay attention to the consistency of your cervical fluid. The more like eggwhite it is, the closer you are to ovulation. You’re aware of your fertility status *for that cycle*. It is very very effective for both achieving and avoiding pregnancy if done correctly.

Rhythm method - no temperature taking, no paying attention to cervical fluid. Basically, you say, “I usually have a 28 day cycle, so that must mean I ovulate around day 14″ You’re guessing, without any measurable proof, and of course, eventually you’ll have a cycle that’s not “normal” and you’ll get pregnant.

]]> by: Matt McIrvin http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/05/25/nfp-the-1-killer-of-children-in-america/#comment-92570 Fri, 26 May 2006 02:13:34 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/05/25/nfp-the-1-killer-of-children-in-america/#comment-92570 <i>Frankly, I wonder if this kind of in joke isn’t dangerous. People will run with this thing.</i> When the story about Delay's people getting punked by Stephen Colbert broke, I wondered for a moment if Colbert ever has misgivings about staying in character like that and possibly occasionally being <em>an effective</em> wacky right-wing pundit. Kind of like what Vonnegut said in Mother Night--we are who we pretend to be. Frankly, I wonder if this kind of in joke isn’t dangerous. People will run with this thing.

When the story about Delay’s people getting punked by Stephen Colbert broke, I wondered for a moment if Colbert ever has misgivings about staying in character like that and possibly occasionally being an effective wacky right-wing pundit. Kind of like what Vonnegut said in Mother Night–we are who we pretend to be.

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