Here at Pandagon, we are firmly committed to match-making. Ardent believers in monogamy, marriage, true love, and fighting with your soon-to-be-mother-in-law over floral arrangements is the end-all, be-all of life, and I’m not about to turn my nose up to match-making for people I may often find disagreeable. I do believe we’ve found a good mate for Anthony at Cosmic Tap, y’all. It just happened to be a stroke of good luck that I read this comment he left here:
In a culture of eating contests and deep fried cheeseake (yes, folks, it’s real - see Applebee’s), sorry, but self-restraint can be a little sexy. Nothing wrong with letting yourself go, but anything that abnormal deserves to be looked up to.
Anthony pops a woody when he sees a woman deprive herself of the pleasure of eating (though is Applebee’s really pleasurable?), but I’ve found someone who’s close enough perhaps for his fetish for watching women deprive themselves needlessly–Dawn Eden. I’m not sure if Dawn agrees with Anthony that women chewing and swallowing is Teh Icky, but she sure as hell is willing to sign onto the idea that women coming are Teh Icky. Upon finding out that the University of Florida decided to have a little fun while educating people about safer sexual practices by having a Paint Your Orgasm event, Dawn has flipped shit:
But of course. How silly of me. Why didn’t I think of that? Teach college students “sexual health and safety” by encouraging them to deprivatize their privates.
The upside, I suppose, is that they can no longer claim a “right to privacy.” Sorry, lady, you gave that up when you wore a self-portrait of your genitalia across your breasts.
Dawn is a treasure–she never remembers the official line that forced pregnancy isn’t supposed to be a punishment for fucking. Gotta give her props for her shitty lying abilities. She just comes right out and says it, that if you’re willing to admit to liking sex you should have your right to determine whether or not to be pregnant stripped away from you. I suppose it logically follows then that if you confess to enjoying the taste of food, you forsake your right to get medical treatment for diabetes or heart disease. Only people who hate sensual pleasures need apply to ownership of their bodies they refuse to enjoy, I guess.
The best part of this misogynist match made in heaven is they both agree which gender is required to forsake the earthier pleasures, so there’s no need to argue that if one person gives up X, the other gives up Y. Nope, it’s all smooth sailing–after a fancy dinner date where he eats while she watches, they can return home while he comes and she watches. No gender role confusion there.
All kidding aside, taken together, these two examples of the patriarchal no-pleasure-for-you crowd help create the very problems they then use to tsk tsk everyone else for having. The reason that sex educators spend time trying to dismantle internalized self-hatred and fear that pleasure, especially female pleasure, is wrong is because fear and shame are excellent conduits for disease and accidental pregnancy. People who are afraid to even enjoy their orgasms aren’t well known for being able to muster the courage to talk about disease prevention with lovers, much less insist on condom use. Until you are convinced that it’s okay to enjoy sex, it’s hard to justify treating yourself as worthy of respect in the act itself.
I’d argue that Americans’ horrible relationship with food that Anthony perceives but interprets ass backwards is the same sort of thing. Eating is considered a shameful act and those who indulge, especially women, feel ashamed. And so people diet and diet and diet and then when they are not dieting–that is, failing as moral human beings like Anthony describes–they hate themselves and throw all caution to the wind, seeking out the junkiest, most disgusting but bad for you food there is. Applebee’s, then, depends on the existence of the diet industry and people like Anthony dedicated to making pleasure in eating the equivalent of a moral failing.
Junk food and junk sex–the latter characterized as misery-laden, unsafe fumblings of desperate people who don’t like themselves–are caused by Puritianism. Once you give yourself permission to enjoy eating for the sensual pleasure of it, you usually abandon the furitive, shameful practice of sneaking junk food. Most unapologetic hedonists I know have far healthier diets than the shame-ridden dieters who are always falling off the wagon. Again, the same principle applies to sex–people who openly enjoy it as a natural part of life aren’t afraid to take care of their physical well-being, aren’t afraid that asking for condom use is breaking the taboo. You don’t fear sex, you aren’t afraid to break the spell and admit by using a condom that you’re doing it.
78 Responses to “I believe in the radical possibilities of pleasure, babe”
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“Most unapologetic hedonists I know have far healthier diets than the shame-ridden dieters who are always falling off the wagon.”
Hear hear. I stoped weighing myself two years ago because I was sick of the headache. I also stoped worrying about dieting. I eat what I want to eat, and find that I actually like to eat home cooked and nutritionally balenced meals. And my pants size has stayed about the same for two years… which is how I figure I’m neither gaining nor loosing weight.
Meanwhile my friend Amy has been on one diet after another for the last 6 years, has actually gained weight over that time, and keeps having these breakdowns where she eats two snickers bars, half a ban of brownies, half a pizza, some cheesecake and some ice cream IN ONE AFTERNOON and then doesn’t eat anything else all day. She uses her weight watcher points to eat as much junk as she can, and rarely eats fruits or veggies except carrot sticks. You need more then two servings of carrot sticks per day to be healthy. She gains weight, feels guilty, diets, gains more weight… its sad.
Interesting thesis, but I am sure even enlightened societies have plenty of junk sex. And the French LOVE McDonald’s, even though they don’t admit it. So, while puritanism doesn’t help matters, I can’t say it’s the cause of these things.
One thing I don’t like about this whole debate– there’s a perfectly good case for staying thin. It’s healthier. All these studies are coming out saying that thin people live longer, they are less susceptible to heart disease, etc. It’s a good idea to try to stay thin– not anorexic thin, but just-below-normal weight thin. And people who are able to exercise the self control to keep themselves thin (again, not anorexic, just thin) are doing something admirable, just as people who keep up a workout regimen are.
But the problem is, in our still-sexist society, women are told to be impossibly thin, not because it is good for them but because it will please men. That’s horrible, and I don’t blame feminism at all for rebelling against it. Still, the lurch towards “fat acceptance” freaks me out somewhat. It isn’t good to tell women that they have to be impossibly and unhealthily thin to please men. But it isn’t good to tell anyone, men or women, that there’s nothing wrong with being fat.
Consider this hypothetical. Suppose a woman who had smoked all her life met a very controlling, domineering man who nonetheless was sickened by smoking and cajoled her into quitting. That might be an unhealthy relationship in all sorts of ways and we would hope she would dump the guy; nonetheless, if she stopped smoking because of it, that would be a very good thing for her in the long term. And that’s sort of the issue here– how do we get beyond a society where women are trying to stay thin to please men while not embracing a society where controlling one’s weight is seen as unimportant?
D.Esper wrote:
Errr… In your universe, perhaps. Meanwhile, in other universes, there are folks who’ve figured out that a great many of these “cases” are made by people who don’t know shit from Shinola.
You seem to automatically presume that controlling one’s weight would naturally lead to everyone being thin. I think in this scenario, at least, “control” and “natural” are in conflict. Either one “naturally” lives as if food is something to be enjoyed and not a regimen solely determined by doctors and the diet industry (who are not, despite your illusions on the matter, unbiased sources of information) or one works constantly to get to a pre-determined size/weight that some authority has deemed appropriate.
Which is it ?
Your smoking example gives me the willies. Last time I checked, nobody needed to smoke to sustain life. Tobacco does not equal food. Furthermore, under no circumstances would I want a friend who smoked to find “health” with a man who controlled her life to the point where he could make her quit cigarettes. Ask anyone who ever lived with a controlling, domineering partner. It’s ruinous to one’s health overall, even if your lungs end up looking as pink and perfect as a veal cutlet next time they’re X-rayed. Depending on how controlling the partner is, you could end up being beaten to death long before the cancer in your lungs would have had the chance to reach full flower.
Yeesh.
Why is “just-below-normal weight” better than “normal”? Doesn’t that just perpetuate body dysmorphic disorder? That is to say, that “normal” isn’t good enough, when really it’s just where you want to be?
Dawn Eden:
Does Dawn Eden think she gives up any right to privacy by making money from being in the public eye?
Dilan, you’re erroneous in your assumption that I’m encouraging people to gain weight. Anthony made it clear that Not Eating is what he finds sexy. Well, on one hand and on the other, he made it clear that he thinks a size one is simple to attain via skipping the occasional cheesecake. I try to avoid eating junk food and sweets and I don’t eat meat and I still cannot get to 100 pounds on a 5′7″ frame, as I am apparently required to do to get basic moral status.
And Dilan, I’m unconvinced of a general health gain if someone’s mental health is broken in exchange for weight loss. The stress of being hated by your partner day in and day out is probably worse for your blood pressure than being a size 6 instead of a size 2.
Plus, your example of junk food/sex still existing proves my point. It’s not the existence of cheap pleasures–it’s that they are the only ones you allow your sinful self and that you overindulge in a frenzy of guilt-ridden self-hate, encouraged perhaps by a society where men can demand women abandon their personalities and obsess about starving themselves for the approval of misogynists. I agree that those of us genetically inclined to stay reasonably thin have control over weight gain, but that control is far easier to get if you like yourself. If you assume eating is morally wrong, an unwillingness to be a good woman, you’re unlikely to enjoy it in moderation. You’re likely to swing between starving and overeating, a surefire way to fuck your metabolism.
Same with sex, as I pointed out. If you hate yourself, you’re more likely to take risks.
What the hell is it with these people that they are so freaked out about stuff that happens at universities? It’s not like “paint your orgasm” day was manditory. Get a large enough university (mine, for example, is as big as a mid-sized suburb, and that’s before you factor in the branch campus students) and at any given time a few students will be doing someting silly or provacative or both. I would bet money that 90% of the students who where even aware of “paint your orgasm” walked right past it without a second thought.
Not that this means it was a bad idea at all, it’s just that anyone who has ever spent time at a large public university knows that there are all kinds of groups doing things to get attention all the time. Some of it is for a cause, some of its for giggles, and so on. Most of the time, they do thier little thing, get thier write-up in the school paper, and at the end of the day have one more bullet point in thier list of things they’ve done for the general campus population when it comes time to beg for thier share of funds from the student governing council. After that, the whole exercise is reduced to, “hey, remember when ____ hosted that thing where people _____?” “Yeah.” “That was (cool/strange/useless).” “Yeah.”
And that’s sort of the issue here– how do we get beyond a society where women are trying to stay thin to please men while not embracing a society where controlling one’s weight is seen as unimportant?
I kind of cringe at the thought that these are the two probable choices. Both sound as though weight is inherently tied to the perception of male perception of one’s body. As such, there are lots of other ways to look at the issue, some of which might even be saleable. Lessen anxieties over what men (or other women) will think and refocus energies on the individual, the long-term benefits, etc., and issues of weight morph from reactively negative to proactive and positive.
Weight is merely one component relevant to health, and exchanging a gain in physical health (or the mere perception of this) for a loss in mental/emotional health could be a net loss. Fat and thin aren’t absolutes, there’s a spectrum inbetween. “Healthy” is not the hypervigilant athletic type who is neurotic about every last pound, nor the blindly happy person who eats indiscriminantly but ends up with diabetes in their 30s as a result. These are somewhat extreme examples, and the reality is much more individualized and encompasses a much broader set of inputs, some controllable, some not.
So, how can we not devolve from one extreme (a society obsessed with thinness to please the menfolk) to another (who cares now that the menfolk can be ignored!)? By thinking about health in a broader (and finer-grained) context, by caring about our own personal health for ourselves before (or instead of!) worrying about the superficialities which appeal to the rest of the world. And so on.
RE: Poor horrified Dawn: Should Anthony not take to her I put forth Bill Napoli as her match. He’s against filth too.
“The cartoon generated a huge amount of filth, intolerable filth,� he told the Rapid City Journal. “Ninety-nine percent of the calls I got were just filth. I bet I didn’t talk to 20 or 25 people I could talk to. The rest were screaming obscenities before I could hang up.�
Still, the lurch towards “fat acceptance� freaks me out somewhat. It isn’t good to tell women that they have to be impossibly and unhealthily thin to please men. But it isn’t good to tell anyone, men or women, that there’s nothing wrong with being fat.
I think there’s a difference between seeing fat as a physical health issue and seeing it as clear-cut evidence of a failure of morals or of character, and the latter is what fat acceptance rails against, too. In fact, if we could lurch a little faster in that direction, that’d be cool.
I believe in the radical possibilities of pleasure, babe
I do, I do, I do!
Something to keep in mind in this type of discussion is that there are tons of people out there who might appear overweight, but who are actually in great shape. Weight is only one part of the equation here–even rail-thin folks need to exercise in order to keep the heart, lungs, bones, muscles, etc. healthy.
There is something ultra sexy about a woman eating something she adores, a Grand Marnier soufflé perhaps. Perhaps steak Oscar? Perhaps Amaretto coffe? Women required to be ascetics is not sexy.
“It’s just that anyone who has ever spent time at a large public university knows that there are all kinds of groups doing things to get attention all the time.”
Well, yes, but given that the university is public that means that (most likely) the attention-grabbing events are being subsidized by tax dollars–something that Ms. Eden notes in her opening sentence. While such is not dispositive of the issue, it shouldn’t be ignored.
I paint with my orgasm. Every single day!
I love Dawn Eden quoting someone about how casual sex makes someone shallow.
That sound, it is the sound of irony zooming right over your head, Dawn…
Oh for the love of Christ. Seriously, Dawn needs to get laid. Stat.
It’s gotten to the point where it’s so common for people to be obsessed with abstaining from food or feeling guilty about eating that, honestly, someone who will unapologetically finish what’s on her plate is pretty sexy.
As someone who thinks there’s nothing sexier than a woman who indulges herself freely in all manner of pleasures, including the gustatory, I’d like to cordially invite Mr. Anthony to take his “sexy self-restraint” and shove it somewhere that he probably won’t be painting on his chest anytime soon.
Yeah, not bitching about how many carbs you’ve eaten is seriously the hottest thing ever.
So far as health goes, isn’t a reasonable amount of exercise more life-extending than adopting some soul-deadening diet? Looking at all the various contradictory studies about diet, there is only one constant: people who exercise are healthier than ones who don’t, whatever weight their bodies tend to. I guess dieting ties into something puritanical in American culture; after all, it’s never seen as innately pleasurable. But given the plethora of physical activities that one can engage in, pleasure is a real, almost unavoidable result. But like everything else in America, it’s looked upon as an opportunity to sell something, from gym memberships to $200 sneakers and $1,200 exercise machines. And like any area where the marketeers have been able to work them over, folks are made to feel guilty for not doing it “right” (i.e. something where the activity, the clothes or the venue isn’t trendy enough). The goal is to get comfortable with your body. Dieting doesn’t do this — all too often it is just another form of self-hatred.
Yeah, not bitching about how many carbs you’ve eaten is seriously the hottest thing ever.
but they don’t, the true anorexic will emphasize their monumental effort only when releasing the FatShame Gambit to cut down another woman and make her feel insecure (much like how antony there released the FatShame Gambit to try to cut amanda down, unfortunatly for him, amanda’s ego is housed in a general products hull), the rest of the time an anorexic spends explaining away their avoidance of food, due to the fact that anorexia is hard to really acceptably be “out” about.
Though not because you face serious social stigma because of it though, just because of the innate nature of it requiring you to say to people “I’m a fatty fat fuck who physically harms herself to adere to arbitrary standards of beauty”, to admit anorexia is tantamount to farting loudly on a first date “OMG! You’re human with flaws and orifices and shit!!!!!11!!”
can’t have that. We have a pedastal to clean until we could refuse to eat food off of it after all.
You only bitch about how many carbs you’ve had in front of other women as a general dominance display, it’s conspicuous non-consumption basically, a status thing, “I am adhereing to the patriarchy in a really harmful and unpleasant way, you are a failure as a woman in comparison, why do you continue to waste air breathing, you Votzverschwendung?”. Sheer, unabashed Sister fuckery in other words, something men need not fear, we will not icky ourselves up by eating in front of you, and not icky ourselves up by letting you know we aren’t eating because we are people with issues, because we’re not fully human, we’re ana-botic sex slaves!
And the kicker, the absolute, final kick in the crotch about the FatShame Gambit is that what amanda is talking about is weight cycling, and as she says is the natural result of any eating disorder because the anorexia fairies are named purge AND binge, and weight cycling is incredibly bad for you as it gives you all the health risks of both over eating and starvation diets. Much worse even than being fat could ever be.
R. Mildred, I love you for the Larry Niven reference, I do.
Seems to me like it’s okay to be out about the “control” part of anorexia (that is, the ability to not eat) but not the lack-of-control aspect that requires one to exert that degree of control over one’s food. I dunno; it’s not my particular demon. I don’t honestly give a crap how I look. And for the record, there’s a friend of mine who might be considered overweight by the casual observer who could easily beat me in pretty much any athletic contest going, with the exception of any contest involving eating.
Well, yes, but given that the university is public that means that (most likely) the attention-grabbing events are being subsidized by tax dollars–something that Ms. Eden notes in her opening sentence. While such is not dispositive of the issue, it shouldn’t be ignored.
I can’t think of many better uses for tax money that preventing people from contracting STDs that end up costing us a lot more money to treat than to prevent, can you? For a “conservative”, Dawn sure seems to oppose money-saving government programs.
I love this whole, “Well, we don’t want people who are fat to feel like moral failures, but at the same time, we don’t want them to think being fat is okay.” I just get a kick out of people who act like fat people don’t know they’re fat, or that they’re not in great shape, because they demand to be treated like human beings regardless of their size. What, you think their brains were liquified by all the food they’re shoveling into their mouths, and you’re afraid they can’t arrive at the conclusion that they’re not in good shape on their own? My mom was obese most of my life and kids made fun of me because she was fat. They were in their thirties and my dad’s friends made fun of him for being married to a fat woman. Kids would whisper and point and laugh at the grocery store. Sometimes their parents would stop them. Mostly they’d join in. People would come up to her, strangers, and tell her she was so fat. Like she was too stupid to notice. We were all out having dinner in a restaurant to celebrate me getting an award at school and someone came up to her to tell her she was disgusting and she ought to think of her children and take better care of herself. People acted like she had NO CLUE that she was fat. Amazing, when there was not a time that I could remember that she wasn’t obsessing about one diet or another. I remember seeing her food journal, a day by day ledger of every item that passed her lips next to their caloric value. I remember her Weight Watchers points and her Jenny Craig meals. I remember her workout tapes. I remember her shame-binges. And she was miserable. Finally, about fifteen years ago, she had obesity surgery, which is a whole other conversation, but that’s what she did. And of course, since it restricts her to involuntary starvation, it worked. Weight melted off of her. All told she dropped 150 lbs. She started swimming every day, she likes to walk, she enjoys exercise without feeling like people are watching her work out with pity in their eyes. She doesn’t watch what she eats any more, and actually she enjoys food more than she ever did and has become a rather talented cook, and she’s not embarrassed to be in public anymore. She looks great, more importantly she feels great, and she’s a totally different person. And she didn’t have her stomach and intestines surgically altered because she thought she was perfectly fine just the way she was. I’m really not trying to jump on anyone, but fat people don’t need thin people to tell them they’re fatties and they’re all going to die. They know they’re fat. And being fat and out of shape doesn’t feel good. They know their health is not good. They have unhealthy relationships with food, just like anorexics and bulemics, and about the same control over it. The difference is that an anorexic has an attracitve and socially acceptable unhealthy relationship with food, and she’s lauded for it because, of course, it’s about self control not overindulgence (where do bulemics fall in this I wonder?). So much so that someone had to write a post about his haunting fear that people have the gall to shame those poor anorexics because they’re all just jealous fatties who can’t control themselves. WTF, since when was it more shameful to be skinny than fat?? What world did HE grow up in? If society needs to help fat people, it’s to understand their relationship with food and that they need help, like anyone with an eating disorder, and that it doesn’t make them bad, immoral, or stupid.
Oh, we wouldn’t, would we….
Go visit this site.
Dawn, honey….
Two things to put on your to do list:
1. Class on comparitive religions.
2. Get out more…a lot more.
Until you are convinced that it’s okay to enjoy sex, it’s hard to justify treating yourself as worthy of respect in the act itself.
Sincere question: is it still the case that young women are reluctant to have condoms available because that would indicate that they were planning to have sex?
Dilan Esper:
But it isn’t good to tell anyone, men or women, that there’s nothing wrong with being fat.
Mm. I’d want to check someone’s heart and pancreas and learn a bit about their eating habits and lifestyle before telling them it’s not ok for them to be fat.
Amanda Marcotte:
I’m unconvinced of a general health gain if someone’s mental health is broken in exchange for weight loss. The stress of being hated by your partner day in and day out is probably worse for your blood pressure than being a size 6 instead of a size 2.
I wonder if there’s any evidence to support my belief that dieters are better off if they don’t regard breaking the diet as a moral failing. Or eating in general.
A bunch of people, paraphrased:
It’s a gorgeous sight to see her eat in the middle of the night
I’m not going to pretend my girlfriend is fat, but for me eating with someone is a social ritual, and can’t be done with someone who won’t eat. That’s why I won’t hang out with vegans, and it’s why I won’t have a relationship with someone who’s obsessed with being thin (well, that and the lack of room for a partner in a life devoted to the pursuit of thin).
PerfectBlue wrote:
I could do without the implication that my fat body indicates an eating disorder on par with anorexia and bulemia, only turned in the opposite direction.
Fat does not automatically = Compulsive eater. Honest.
You know that fat people know we’re fat. Yet you presume that we don’t know what, and how, we’re eating ?
Thanks. Umm…. I guess… Being patronized 50% is better than being patronized 100%, I suppose.
Idlemind wrote:
Yep. Which is why I prefer yardwork over going to the gym. I like mucking in the dirt. I like interacting with growing things and not machines. If I could just figure out how to work outside in Winter comfortably without risking my health, I’d have it made.
1. PerfectBlue - bravo and thank you.
Gosh darn it I hate it when I click the wrong damn button. I wanted to say bravo and thank you for telling people to stop being insensative assholes.
I also wanted to say I adore food (both the kind that is good for you and the kind that is not) so any of you guys that love to watch a woman eat, well, if you’re ever in my neck of the woods, call me…we’ll have dinner.
However, it took me a long time to learn to be comfortable with my appetite (both for food and for sex).
But now, I rule.
No, it doesn’t necessarily equal compulsive eating. If that were true, then weight watchers and jenny craig might have worked for my mom. The most she ever lost on a diet was fifteen pounds. But I do know that the way she looked at food was somewhat warped, and that’s by her own admission. And I don’t mean to imply that being an overeater is anorexia backwards…I am aware that they are very different.
Ledasmom: What Larry Niven reference?
I don’t think I’d overlook one, but I can’t find one anywhere in R. Mildred’s comment!
You two know of some Niven story I haven’t read?
This is not meant as an endorsement of Niven by the way–he’s become for me a guilty pleasure, and one who sometimes grates something fierce. But I still have read anything by him I’ve ever heard of.
Well, except the DreamPark novels.
Amanda,
I’ve never commented here before, but I loved this blog before this:
Anthony made it clear that Not Eating is what he finds sexy. Well, on one hand and on the other, he made it clear that he thinks a size one is simple to attain via skipping the occasional cheesecake.
I’ve read the post in question, and it doesn’t say anything like this.
Mark Foxwell asked
What Larry Niven reference?
R. Mildred wrote:
amanda’s ego is housed in a general products hull
Puppeteer tech reference. Sad that I know this, I suppose. I was a fan in my teen years, but moved on to better writers since.
PerfectBlue wrote:
Thanks for that then. I hope you’re also aware that a great many skinny people also overeat, if we’re going with the fried-cheesecake-hold-the-veggies model/caricature.
Answer posted Mark, but in moderation at the moment. Bizarre how I can curse up a storm in one post, and yet this innocuous one triggers the mod.
Well, Maria, he does make some comment about a thin “girl” knowing how to “say no to herself,” and not eat the deep-fried cheesecake “the rest of you” are eating.
I guess that could be interpreted not to mean that his ideal thin girl (he refuses to use the word “woman” for people he dates) just needs to skip the deep-fried cheesecake to be his ideal Size 1 (he only dates supermodels), but I’m not sure what other interpretation to take away from it.
I dunno … I think this passage, “So, please, ladies - the girl who has the body the rest of you wish you had is not anorexic. The girl who delicately refuses the eighteen-ounce wedge of deep-fried cheesecake the rest of you dive into after dinner is not anorexic. The girl who is obsessed with fitting back into those size 1 jeans is not anorexic. She’s just thinner than you, knows how to say no to herself, and it makes you jealous.”
seems to reek of the opinion that we wimmen can’t stand for other wimmen to be purtier than us.
It’s not the result, weiner-boy … it’s HOW they achieved that result (not eating dessert vs. not eating. period.) … and HOW they see themselves (I’m pudgy vs. my god, I’m an abomination) … and are they thin because they feel like their weight is the only thing they have control over. But, then … subtleties such as these don’t seem to be the author’s strong suit.
“Subsidized by tax dollars”: Less of an issue as government funding on universities declines. Student loans don’t count so much; as they have to be paid back. You can tell me that your tax dollars give you the right to tell me what to do at my university when A) I get free tuition because the school is just rolling in government cash and B) I get to not pay any taxes myself while in school. Since last I checked I do infact pay taxes and tuition has risen nearly 50% in the five years that I have been here, mostly because of state funding cuts, you’re just going to have to take that smug “they’re my tax dollars” arguement elsewhere.
“So, please, ladies - the girl who has the body the rest of you wish you had is not anorexic. The girl who delicately refuses the eighteen-ounce wedge of deep-fried cheesecake the rest of you dive into after dinner is not anorexic. The girl who is obsessed with fitting back into those size 1 jeans is not anorexic. She’s just thinner than you, knows how to say no to herself, and it makes you jealous.�
This is how I interpreted it:
If woman A sees woman B, and woman B has a (thinner) body that, for whatever reason woman A wishes she had, that is not anorexia.
If woman A sees woman B not eating [insert desert of choice], that is a case of woman B “saying no to herself” (whatever that means). It is also not anorexia.
If woman A sees that woman B obsesses about “fitting into size 1 jeans,” that is, again, not anorexia.
Therefore, do not call woman B “anorexic.”
One point in the entire article the quote was taken from seems to be that anorexia is a serious eating disorder, and that the term shouldn’t be used casually to mean 1) being thin, 2) skipping desert, or 3) wanting to be thin (although the disorder is an extreme version of all three things).
Anthony made it clear that Not Eating is what he finds sexy.
He’s obviously never licked melted chocolate or butter dripping from an asparagus spear from his “girl’s” neck. The man in my life loves to watch me eat. Of course, I purposely dribble something somewhere so he can clean it off for me.
What an unsexy and sexless wanker poor Anthony must be. Which would make him a perfect match for Dawn permanently-exiled-from-Eden. I would say they both need a soul-bending orgasm or two, but I doubt it will ever happen.
Actually, student events like this are generally paid for with activity fee money. On most campuses, the students set the level of the activity fee by referendum, pay the fee as part of their tuition bill, and elect a student government to determine which groups will get how much of it. It’s a democratic process, and it has next-to-nothing to do with anybody’s tax dollars.
Anthony calls the people he dates “girls” just for one reason: to make clear that he is superior to them concerning mental abilities. So he is so nice to pay attention to her while she has to present her young and perfect body to him in order to please him and demonstrate thankfulness.
Anyway, nice paper: http://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/full/54/7/1994
Well, when I first had sex it was almost ten years ago. I had this struggle. Logic and sanity won out… mostly. I had condoms with me when I had sex. But I always had to make up this crazy story about how I wasn’t really intending to have sex but through this craaaaazy series of events, donchaknow! I just happened to have some condoms. So, wanna fuck?
Godfather:
Anthony calls the people he dates “girls� just for one reason: to make clear that he is superior to them concerning mental abilities.
I thought it was to make clear that he’s not interested in anyone who wants to be treated as a functional human being with agency and valid opinions.
Well, girls can have valid opinions, if not always agency.
Regarding sex: Guess what I read in the WaPo today — many drug stores in DC lock up the condoms so you have to push a button & summon the store manager to buy them.
Supposedly if the condoms weren’t locked up, they would fly off the shelves so fast (via thievery) no store in DC could afford to sell them. The losses would be that great.
Yeah, right.
There’s a Safeway near me that locks up the vaginal yeast infection cream, but NOT the condoms.
Lotsa vaginal yeast infection cream theft in the local crime reports.
I also once had to summon a store manager in the very crowded drugstore near my office complex so HE could get me a pregnancy test.
Yeesh. I hate everything. I’m gonna go sit in the sunshine and pretend assholes, and misogynists, don’t exist.
Did anyone read the comments on the thread? Chilling!
Dawn wrote: “An orgasm has no mystical meaning if its sole purpose is to give ephemeral pleasure. The truly mystical lasts forever.”
No! Not ephemeral pleasure! Anything but that!
“If any one shall tell me that it is to undervalue the Muses to make use of them only for sport and to pass away the time, I shall tell him, that he does not know so well as I the value of the sport, the pleasure, and the pastime; I can hardly forbear to add that all other end is ridiculous.”– Montaigne
Gee, I wonder why fat people have such a fucked-up relationship with food?
Maybe it’s because when I order at a restaurant, I’m worried that the waiter or waitress will give me “the look” — the one that says “wouldn’t you rather have this nice salad?” or that if I DO order the salad (which I only do when I’m actually in the mood for a salad), I might get a “oh, that’s so nice” look. Maybe we have a different relationship with food because when we allow ourselves the same indulgences everyone else does (and I happen to loathe cheesecake, so that’s a bad example), we’re the ones who get looked at as the weak-willed, careless pigs. Maybe it’s because it’s frustrating to us when we eat exactly the same way as our thin(ner) partners, and watch as they stay thin and we stay fat. Maybe it’s because we have to worry every day that food — that stuff you put in your mouth to KEEP ALIVE — and people’s perception of it is going to fuck up our relationships. Maybe it’s because we’ve had significant others look mortified by the fact that we’d use real butter in a recipe for a dinner party because of what others would think. Maybe it’s because we know we’re fat and that people think we’re compulsive overeaters, even though we’re not. Maybe it’s because, when we’ve explained our diets — comparatively healthy diets — to our doctors, they’ve looked at us and said “well, there must be something you’re not telling me. Maybe you’re sneaking food!”
Every fat person knows the litany. Every fat person knows that thinner people say “god, what did you do to get that fat?” For them, the only way they could get that fat would be by eating a never-ending stream of oreos and twinkies and sticks of butter dipped in grease. So they assume that’s what fat people must do. But the lack of “junk food” in my house is almost complete (I think there’s a bag of potato chips on top of the fridge that’s been there for 6 months, and an iced-over carton of ice cream in the freezer). I have never — and I mean NEVER — met a fat person who eats in a way even vaguely resembling the way fat people portrayed in movies and TV do. But I do know a lot of fat people who get ugly looks when they’ve been trying their damnedest to be healthy…and then say “fuck it” and go eat unhealthily for a while.
Personally, I feel best when I’m having yummy food that doesn’t mess with my digestive system too much, preferably food that is local and organic. I also like to get a moderate amount of exercise, but I’m going to have to get an exercise machine of some sort here at home because there’s no way I’m going to give myself heatstroke outside this summer (unlike last summer). And yet, if someone sees me treating myself to ice cream, which I do less than once a month, they think they’ve got me pegged. “Ah,” they think. “That solves the mystery.”
The truth is, there’s a reason fat people are invisible except when they’re eating. It’s because non-fat people hate to think “There but for the grace of God go I.” When they see a fat person eating something fatty, it’s a relief!
And if you think fat people don’t know this — or that their relationship with food isn’t utterly changed by the fact that they know this — then you’re just being obtuse.
Human did better than me. I can recall more than one occasion in which I told some twit to put on his pants and go the hell home because he started whining about how “awkward” condoms are blah blah blah.
No wonder I’m so staid nowadays. Responsible debauchery is a royal pain in the– ah, actually, it’s a royal pain all over…
El Mocho - the most egregious of Dawn’s trogs is this one:
This can only happen in a contracepting culture. What sustains the population? A woman screaming in orgasmic pleasure, or one who is pregnant?
this stuff needs to be criminalized.
Biddy
gee, Biddy … just “lie back and think of England”
Gee, I wonder why fat people have such a fucked-up relationship with food?
They’re not the only ones. My coworker — thin as the day is long — regularly talks about her food consumption in terms of her being “good” or “bad” without a trace of irony. If she’s “good,” she’s chowing down on raw vegetables. If she’s “bad,” it’s because she wants French fries. Unfortunately, we all become involved in this twisted menu selection because she declares that she wants to be “bad,” but she *should* be “good.” (To everyone’s credit, the response is usually, “Have at it,” but I think the expectation is that we’re supposed to talk her down from the deep-fried ledge.)
For Christ’s sake, it’s lunch. It’s lunch. Eat the fries, don’t eat the fries. If you choose the salad, however, remember this: It’s a side salad, not a bowl of virtue.
Most unapologetic hedonists I know have far healthier diets than the shame-ridden dieters who are always falling off the wagon.
So true. I stopped depriving myself of food, and my sweet tooth vanished. However, instead of eating junk all the time, I find that I crave vegetables, whole grains, poultry - good, healthy food - but if I want a Cadbury creme egg, I eat it and I move on. But then you have my friends and family who diet - the only vegetables they WANT to eat are potatoes, and they love to eat junk food, and they beat themselves up over it.
Guess which of us constantly struggles with weight, diabetes, hyperglycemia, etc.? And guess which of us can quickly bike five miles without puking?
Diets are fuckin’ evil. However, exercise? Is amazing. It is better than the best drug I’ve ever taken (and I’ve taken a few). It elevates my mood like nothing else, I have bunches of energy that wasn’t there before, and as a very pleasant side effect, my body looks slammin’. Not skinny or anorexic, but muscular and strong. Parts of my body are even larger than they were before - gasp!
I feel sexier than I ever have, even when I was a scrawny lil’ thing wearing nothing more than a size 2, and it didn’t have a damn thing to do with passing up the deep-fried cheesecake or exercising ’self restraint’.
I will never encourage a person to diet, but I will always encourage a person to do some sort of exercise. Now THAT is sexy.
I did a quick and dirty and informal poll of the men in my office. (for the record it’s an even mix between self-identified republicans and democrats). Every single one of them much preferred to be with someone who enjoys eating.
I asked the guy I’m currently having sex with. He seems to like being with a woman who enjoys eating. (which is good, cuz we go out to eat a lot).
My ex-husband was a chef - I know that it wasn’t my enjoyment of food (or sex) that ended our marriage.
For myself, I have never been able to date (or have sex with for that matter) a man who doesn’t love food. And here’s why.
Food is about more than just mere survival. Think on all the different kinds of nourishment it provides - the most primal example being the baby at her mother’s breast. Our most potent early memories of food are often tied to family (and hence to love).
As we age food becomes more connected with sex - most memories of our best dates or sexual encounters involve food in some way. And then there are the dinners with friends (often made as a group effort) that involve life-changing conversations.
So why should we be surprised that some wingnut takes pleasure in seeing a woman deny herself joy in the act of eating? Even here we are arguing/defending a woman’s “right” to be fat, rather than our own right to pleasure, whether it be through cheesecake or oral sex or a vibrator or what-have you.
I feel sexy when my senses are well fed. That includes clothing, conversation, food, various forms of physical stimulus. I feel even sexier when the person I am with is a part of feeding those senses. But then again, I’m not afraid to ask for a condom either…..
And if you think fat people don’t know this — or that their relationship with food isn’t utterly changed by the fact that they know this — then you’re just being obtuse.
Indeed. Being fat myself, you have the right to tell me to get more exercise only if you give me permission to beat your stupid head in.
The interesting thing is that I recently noticed I’d drifted over the point of bad health (i.e. not enough puff from even simple exercise), so I just cut back on the fatty stuff, started eating more fruit, and doing a bit more exercise, and I feel considerably fitter - without looking noticably thinner. I can lug a backpack and laptop around town on foot again.
So if you have a problem with me being a porker, keep it to yourself.
What sustains the population? A woman screaming in orgasmic pleasure, or one who is pregnant?
Well there you go. They think those two things are mutually exclusive. That explains a lot.
Jesus, Hershele, you won’t eat with vegans because you’ve drawn some conclusion that they don’t enjoy food?
Judgmental much?
Brooklynite–how could I have forgotten that? I think I pay something like $160 every year for my “free” season tickets to our crappy football team’s home games. Every student pays this fee, you can’t opt out, even though almost no one goes to games. I had heard that they slip tickets for every student into the student activity fees so that they can plausibly claim enough attendence to keep their division whatever status, but that could just be a rumor.
It’s a side salad, not a bowl of virtue.
I love it. I’ll have one bowl of virtue. The large one. With ranch dressing.
Then I’m going to suck all of the powder out of these packets of Equal, the morally superior sweetener.
For some reason, no matter how many times thin people who eat “badly” point this out, it’s OBVIOUSLY the fault of fat people that they’re fat.
I’ve eaten at Wendy’s almost every day for a week (just moved, kitchen not yet useable), but do I get funny looks? No. I eat Rice Krispie Treats and coke for breakfast when I’m stressed (not good for my teeth or my hypoglycemia) — but again, no criticism.
I love food, and I love cooking, and when I’m not too stressed to cook, I do eat healthy and crave nutritious things. But the fact remains that I don’t get censured for eating junk because I’m thin (and I exercise so little these days that I can no longer explain it by exercise; my body clings to its weight — I can neither gain nor lose without immense effort or illness, respectively). People want weight to be simple; it isn’t.
I dated a woman with anorexia once, and worrying about her health (mental and physical) constantly and being unable to share the joy of food with her = not sexy, or fun. Anyone who thinks it is scares me.
the vegan trip:
i have taken part in some truly awesome vegan dinner parties. if you’re willing to put in a little effort and a little creativity, vegan meals can be delicious and fun. same goes for food allergies, or for any dietary restriction, really. i was rather proud of my soy-free, wheat-free, no-HFCS, vegan thanksgiving meal, for example. because it didn’t suck! vegan food never has to suck! it can be hard work to properly balance meals, though, and people can get obsessive about it. (and i understand how easy it is to obsess, since i’ve had my immune system die once and got to spend months living on, basically, rice. and sometimes pears. and i hate pears.)
there are those who get off on the self-denial aspect of veganism - though it seems to be more rampant among the raw-food-adherants - and those who become vegan because they want to become rail-thin aescetics. and it’s lame. it starts reminding me of the behaviour patterns of those i’ve known with EDs, and it really bothers me. and in the final balance, it’s not fun to have dinner with someone who’s doing an eight-week amino-and-wheatgrass cleanse.
it’s always sad when eating stops being a pleasure and starts being a chore, and staring down at a plate of unflavoured millet while being lectured at about its high protein content is just not fun. veganism doesn’t have to be that way, but some people make it that way, play up the spiritual/philosophical aspects of their ‘purity’, and generally act like assholes about it. it’s not fair to refuse to eat with someone who’s vegan, but it’s totally acceptable to refuse to eat with someone who’s being an asshole. just be sure you differentiate.
Phoenician:
My first thought was that that might be pretty good exercise, depending on the thickness of the head.
I exercise more most people I know, and I do it because I like to stay busy, because I love the feeling of my body in movement, and because I like learning new physical skills. In January I started running and dancing (instead of just going to Karate twice a week and swimming once). This meant that I was doing something intensively physical every day of the week and I was utterly exhausted most of the time in the beginning before my sturdy body adapted.
And since the day I started karate two and a half years ago, and despite biking, walking, running, dancing, intensively during that entire time I haven’t lost weight. Not a size and probably not a pound (though I don’t weigh myself terribly often, so it’s hard to say - certainly all my clothes continue to fit and I continue to buy the same sizes as ever). That’s entirely fine by me, because it certainly wasn’t the point.
I ran 8 kilometers on Sunday, at a fairly good pace. I did five hours of karate on Saturday. I’m going running later tonight and I’ll probably run about 5 kilometers.
I’m 5′4 and weigh 225 pounds. Anyone who looks at me wouldn’t think I could do those things. I’ve gotten those looks from people in restaurants about whether I have any right to eat (at all). It can be really difficult sometimes to not get… defensive about my eating, or about my size, or about trying to buy a karate gi and not be able to get one like everybody else because they don’t make them large enough to cover this woman’s hips. I often wonder how often larger people (women especially) are discouraged from starting cool things because it’s difficult to even get the equipment to participate in sports like karate.
(To be clear, I don’t think anybody *should* go out and start exercising as much as I’ve been doing (they can if they want to, of course). Doing so doesn’t make me a “virtuous” person. I do it because I enjoy it and that’s all. I wouldn’t have enjoyed it four years ago, so it’s a good thing i didn’t do it then - I would have resented it and quit and probably not restarted. If a time comes in my future when I’m not enjoying it, I’ll stop for a while.)
(And sorry, I didn’t mean to go on like that..)
Amanda, you also have to wonder about somebody who thinks pregnancy sustains the population.
Re the vegan thing: I normally love reading everything Hershele writes, but this time he did step in it.
Hershele, if that’s what you think vegans are like, you really ought to spend time chatting with Sarah Kramer. Or even just go have look at her message boards.
I’ve come across very few people with such passion for food, ever.
Confessions of a food slut.
I’m lucky. I never really had any issues with food, unless you count being a picky eater as a child. Luckier still, the man I was married to for 15 years loved food and shared that with me. So I went from being a person who flat out refused to eat anything outside her own narrow realm of experience to being the first one to order something no one could pronounce. And even though we’ve been divorced for several years now, we still share that passion.
It doesn’t surprise me that the joy we take in the discovery of the world of sensory pleasure that food provides closely matches that which we take in the discovery of our own sexual lives.
Imagine you are holding a ripe pear. Explore with your hand how the firmness of the skin covers the soft flesh inside, the way it gives under your touch. Close your eyes, and bring the pear toward you. Feel it’s coolness pressed against your cheek. But don’t stop there. Breathe deeply. Take in the heady, almost fermented frangrance of it’s ripeness. Imagine what it would be like to be covered in that smell. Notice how your mouth is beginning to water. As yyou bring that pear to your mouth, pay close attention to the sensation in your lips; the way it feels as your teeth graze against the skin. Savor the juiciness as it explodes into your mouth, dribbling down your chin and over your fingers. You look at the napkin in front of you, and with obvious relish, lick your fingers clean.
Now take a moment and re-read the above paragraph. Take away the pear and think instead of your lover. His thigh, hair, eyes, lips, scent. Or imagine yourself as the pear. This too is nourishment. It feeds the heart, the mind, the soul. It is joyous and celebration and sometimes pure gluttony.
Our bodies and minds were designed to appreciate being sated in this way; both with food and sex. To live in denial of this would be a slap in the face (not to mention a sin) of any diving being that (supposedly) created us.
Any person who cannot see that their partners abililty to revel in the pleasure of food mirrors their ability to revel in the physical joy of the exploration of their lovers (or their own) body, or worse refuses to indulge and encourage such things, is a fool. And I, for one, certainly won’t be inviting them to dinner any time soon.
of course, diving should read “divine” (crap - shoulda spell checked that sucker)
alsis:
I can recall more than one occasion in which I told some twit to put on his pants and go the hell home because he started whining about how “awkward� condoms are blah blah blah.
Condoms are awkward. If someone is horny enough, they can usually deal with it it.
zuzu:
Jesus, Hershele, you won’t eat with vegans because you’ve drawn some conclusion that they don’t enjoy food?
Judgmental much?
Yes, in fact, but this isn’t an instance of it.
Vegans undoubtedly enjoy food in the same proportion as the rest of the population. I didn’t intend to say otherwise, although I’m gradually coming to acknowledge the possibility that I’m not a very good writer. The key phrase is “eating with someone is a social ritual.” Since the largest component of my diet is meat and almost as high on the list is dairy, I can’t eat with one. There’s no possible menu that would make everyone happy. Vegetarians? Well, New York is full of Chinese and Thai and Tibetan and Italian restaurants or, if she couldn’t even tolerate meat on the table, pizzerias. The vegan diet is a bit stricter.
Why the hell couldn’t you take a vegan out for Chinese, Thai, or Tibetan ? All those schools of cooking have fine tofu options, no ? If you’re lucky enough to have Indonesian in your town, there’s also tempeh with peanut sauce. (Swoon.) If I turned vegan tomorrow, I’d be eating that at least once a week…
Another lynne, some how your description of eating a pair was more arousing than a half-a-dozen “romance” novels I’ve read describing sex.
Mmmm…pears.
your description of eating a pair was more arousing
Freudian slip or vagina dentata/castration fantasy?
There’s no possible menu that would make everyone happy.
you’d be surprised. really. half my friends are vegan, the other half are carnivores. a couple are wheat-intolerant, a few have IBS, and i’m a vegetarian who can’t eat soy. but we eat together all the time. again, it’s the difference between being a vegan and being an asshole.
:::blushing:::
alsis:
Of course I don’t want the woman in that hypothetical relationship to stay with that man. What I was pointing out was something else– that just because the patriarchy is pushing something on women doesn’t mean that doing the OPPOSITE thing is always the right thing to do. It’s good to stay fit– NOT because the patriarchy wants women to do it, but because it’s healthy.
Amanda:
I agree generally about the mental health issue. To me, that’s tied up with the patriarchal pressures on women to lose weight. That leads to binge-and-purge, anorexia, bulemia, yo-yo dieting, and all the rest. (Oprah Winfrey is actually a wonderful public example of how this can affect a woman.) So I don’t want women driving themselves crazy to stay thin.
But the problem is, when you read some of these comments, you can see a lot of people make exactly the assumption that you don’t make and that I don’t think one should make– that because fat is a feminist issue (which it is), anyone who says that people should lose weight– for any reason– is being horribly oppressive, blaming the victim, etc.
To me, this is pretty simple. A human being is better off, all other things being equal, if he or she is fit and thin. Of course, all things are not equal, and some people may be better off not trying to diet because of mental or physical health issues. But, frankly, in this comment thread I also see a lot of excuses. I see people arguing that because some thin people are able to stay thin despite eating badly and some people have a lot of trouble losing weight even if they eat right and exercise (which are true statements), therefore, no overweight person is ever responsible for his or her condition. I am sorry, that is not true. Most of the time, if one is overweight, it is because of a bad diet and lack of exercise. That isn’t even arguable.
I also see people in the comments thread complaining about how the world makes assumptions about fat folks. That’s assuredly true– though I bet some of it is actually projection, because I doubt these folks asked the people around them what their thoughts were about the person eating an ice cream cone or a salad. But let’s assume the whole world has it in for fat people– I don’t see how that means it’s a good idea to take time off one’s life by not trying to lose weight. Again, the point here is that just because there are bunch of idiots out there who come down way too hard on overweight women (and men) doesn’t change the health issues. It just means that there are insensitive idiots in the world. (I might add that there are insensitive idiots with respect to the smoking issue as well, which is why smokers are being prohibited now from lighting up even in places where they do not cause any health risk to the rest of the population. Insensitive idiots are a bad thing– and an even worse thing when they are also sexists.)
The point is exactly the one I made in my earlier post. Because of this horrible, crushing pressure that men put on women to stay artificially thin (and by the way, I actually think that the preference reflected in some comments for women who eat is part of the problem– many men expect their wives or girlfriends to stay thin while also expecting them to eat rich foods in their presence), it is easy for people who don’t want to deal with a weight problem that they really should deal with to say that there’s nothing wrong and that the only problem is the patriarchy imposing these expectations about how much they weigh. That’s just not true. Among other things, feminism should be concerned with women living long, healthy lives. And embracing the excesses of “fat acceptance” may be a natural response to the unreasonable expectations that sexist men impose on the female body, but it comes at the cost of giving up the fight against a condition (obesity) that causes too many people, including too many women, to meet an early demise.
Dilan:
Then say “fit” from the start. Not “thin” or “skinny.” These are not interchangeable terms, no matter how many times they’re used as such.
And frankly, I think that the patriarchy doesn’t give two shits if I can run up a flight of stairs without being winded. I think it gives a shit if I either can fit into a Size 1 or want to expend years of energy and cash trying to do so. Only in a magical parallel universe woud somebody with my build and various physical issues becoming a Size 1 be “fit.” Even then, the patriarchy would regard it as, at most, a fortunate side effect, not the main point.
Dilan: I’m not exactly an expert on fat-acceptance literature, I’ll admit, but I have read some & to date have not seen a one that says you *shouldn’t* get a reasonable amount of exercise or learn about nutrition.
IMHO, I think it’s a measure of the inability of the fatphobic to accept that “thin” does NOT equal “healthy”, nor does “fat” equal “unhealthy” that causes their minds to automatically interpret “fat acceptance” as “poor health acceptance.”
alsis:
“Thin” and “fit” are not exactly the same thing (and overly thin is the antithesis of fit), but they are related.
Crys:
The fat acceptance LITERATURE may not say it, but look through the above comments thread. You’ll see people implying that because some people who are thin are able to maintain their weight without dieting, that means that nobody needs to diet. You’ll see people saying that because people look down on fat people and guys have unrealistic expectations, that therefore any statement about the importance of not being overweight or obese should be dismissed.
And even on the issue you highlight– “thin does not equal healthy” is true enough, but there’s a difference between saying they aren’t equivalent (true) and saying they have nothing to do with each other. First, fat DOES equal unhealthy. It is simply NOT good for a person to be overweight. It increases the chances of heart disease and all sorts of other potentially fatal conditions. Second, all these studies are coming out that say that the way to extend your life is to stay relatively thin, restrict your caloric intake, and exercise. So while thin does not equal healthy, thinness and healthiness have something to do with each other.
Finally, let me say something about fat acceptance on its own terms. If the issue is, we shouldn’t discriminate against overweight people, I fully agree. If the issue is we should do what we can to be courteous towards them, again I agree. But I am not convinced that this is all that is involved. The fact is, people should not mistreat their bodies. All other things being equal, they shouldn’t overeat and should try to exercise. Being overweight is NOT something that one should “accept”. It’s something that one should try to change– subject to Amanda’s perfectly valid point about mental health issues. Telling people– as a group– that they should try to avoid being overweight and that they should try to lose weight if they are is not some form of invidious discrimination; it is no different from telling people they shouldn’t smoke or that they should drink only in moderation. This is an area where individuals should be treated with dignity and respect, and nobody should be subjected to mean or discriminatory treatment because of how much they weigh, but where public policy and cultural presumptions should favor people staying fit, healthy, and not overweight.
kidlacan:
it’s not fair to refuse to eat with someone who’s vegan, but it’s totally acceptable to refuse to eat with someone who’s being an asshole.
Well, I wouldn’t eat at the home of a vegan, because, well, what? I don’t like tofu and my body (not to mention my palate) doesn’t take well to leafy greens (when I indulge in spinach, which I do like, I shit spinach leaves for the next 18-30 hours). I won’t eat faux meat or faux cheese because I don’t like the idea of eating imitation foods (”If you become a vegan, you can still have soy-and-millet patties!” “Yes, but if I don’t become a vegan I can continue eating hamburger”). It’s probably only the assholes who would object to the fact of animal products in the vicinity, leaving me free to enjoy my bo sate while they had something they liked.