Comments on: The gang rape is the essential scene of the patriarchy http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/03/29/the-gang-rape-is-the-essential-scene-of-the-patriarchy/ Just another WordPress weblog Mon, 09 Nov 2009 22:55:46 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=1.5.1-alpha by: My Blahg » THE GILDED CAGE OF CONFORMITY http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/03/29/the-gang-rape-is-the-essential-scene-of-the-patriarchy/#comment-285775 Sat, 09 Dec 2006 14:28:53 +0000 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/03/29/the-gang-rape-is-the-essential-scene-of-the-patriarchy/#comment-285775 [...] I think Amanda Marcotte from Pandagon nails this entirely on the head when she says; Criminologists say that a lot of young men who participate in gang rapes would never rape a woman on their own. That strikes me as accurate–the pressure to conform and participate is probably enormous. It’s good evidence for the feminist assertion that rape is a tool of male dominance–the psychology is a lot like that of war–you must be brutal to the target to show your loyalty to the group. That the violence on average in gang rapes is worse than most other rapes is more evidence of this. [...] […] I think Amanda Marcotte from Pandagon nails this entirely on the head when she says; Criminologists say that a lot of young men who participate in gang rapes would never rape a woman on their own. That strikes me as accurate–the pressure to conform and participate is probably enormous. It’s good evidence for the feminist assertion that rape is a tool of male dominance–the psychology is a lot like that of war–you must be brutal to the target to show your loyalty to the group. That the violence on average in gang rapes is worse than most other rapes is more evidence of this. […]

]]> by: the procrastinators handbook http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/03/29/the-gang-rape-is-the-essential-scene-of-the-patriarchy/#comment-241687 Mon, 06 Nov 2006 23:26:15 +0000 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/03/29/the-gang-rape-is-the-essential-scene-of-the-patriarchy/#comment-241687 <strong>More on the Duke Gang Rape Case...</strong> The recent explosion of posts about the Duke University gang rape has gotten me thinking a lot about the intersections of race, gender, class, and sexuality. There have been some really interesting posts about how these intersections are playing out i... More on the Duke Gang Rape Case…

The recent explosion of posts about the Duke University gang rape has gotten me thinking a lot about the intersections of race, gender, class, and sexuality. There have been some really interesting posts about how these intersections are playing out i…

]]> by: tribe.net: pandagon.net http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/03/29/the-gang-rape-is-the-essential-scene-of-the-patriarchy/#comment-112838 Sat, 17 Jun 2006 11:55:54 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/03/29/the-gang-rape-is-the-essential-scene-of-the-patriarchy/#comment-112838 <strong>Musings regarding the patriarchy and rape...</strong> I'm reading a book called &quot;Working with Available Light.&quot; I was looking for ...... Musings regarding the patriarchy and rape…

I’m reading a book called "Working with Available Light." I was looking for ……

]]> by: belledame222 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/03/29/the-gang-rape-is-the-essential-scene-of-the-patriarchy/#comment-66106 Sat, 08 Apr 2006 15:57:29 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/03/29/the-gang-rape-is-the-essential-scene-of-the-patriarchy/#comment-66106 I think part of the problem here is that people may mean different things by "good person." If you mean, "never had committed a crime before, pays taxes, pets dogs and kisses babies, in good standing with the community, no horns," then yes, absolutely, "good people" do horrible things all the time. And it is true that people who might never otherwise commit atrocities like gang rape of their own volition are much more likely to go along with the crowd when someone else initiates it. So in that sense: no, there are no "monsters." It's not so unusual. You can't spot them walking down the street. But it isn't true that we're all equally capable--well *likely*, at any rate, to do shit like this. Certainly not as an initiator (and there has to be someone who gets that ball rolling, always). And I honestly don't think it's self-defense when i say this. God knows I have my own dark side. Everyone has the capacity of doing seriously nasty shit, yes. But I think most people tend to look at this in the wrong way. It's not what a question of what everyone else *does* have; it's a question of what people who actually do this shit *don't* have. There is something seriously whack here, and you can't just blame "society" or some amorphous construct that has nothing to do with actual, you know, people. I look at the statements from the Lacrosse team, you know, the group letter bemoaning how they were so looking forward to the season, and I think, as my best friend says, "There's a wee want in them." Even if the people who wrote the statement weren't the actual perps. Something's missing. I think part of the problem here is that people may mean different things by “good person.”

If you mean, “never had committed a crime before, pays taxes, pets dogs and kisses babies, in good standing with the community, no horns,” then yes, absolutely, “good people” do horrible things all the time.

And it is true that people who might never otherwise commit atrocities like gang rape of their own volition are much more likely to go along with the crowd when someone else initiates it.

So in that sense: no, there are no “monsters.” It’s not so unusual. You can’t spot them walking down the street.

But it isn’t true that we’re all equally capable–well *likely*, at any rate, to do shit like this. Certainly not as an initiator (and there has to be someone who gets that ball rolling, always). And I honestly don’t think it’s self-defense when i say this. God knows I have my own dark side. Everyone has the capacity of doing seriously nasty shit, yes.

But I think most people tend to look at this in the wrong way. It’s not what a question of what everyone else *does* have; it’s a question of what people who actually do this shit *don’t* have.

There is something seriously whack here, and you can’t just blame “society” or some amorphous construct that has nothing to do with actual, you know, people.

I look at the statements from the Lacrosse team, you know, the group letter bemoaning how they were so looking forward to the season, and I think, as my best friend says, “There’s a wee want in them.” Even if the people who wrote the statement weren’t the actual perps. Something’s missing.

]]> by: Getunderliberalskin:) http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/03/29/the-gang-rape-is-the-essential-scene-of-the-patriarchy/#comment-65933 Fri, 07 Apr 2006 17:18:45 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/03/29/the-gang-rape-is-the-essential-scene-of-the-patriarchy/#comment-65933 Wow, it's is amazing how this site, which boasts so many liberal views, is ready to condemn the entire Duke Lacrosse team without so much as hearing all the facts. Does it not raise a red flag to anyone that the accuser was found guilty of larceny, assaulting a government official and other charges while in the act of vehicle theft? Does this establish a prior history? I think most of you would say that once a male has committed rape he should be flagged forever as a rapist. Should this girl not be flagged for trying to make a quick buck? Is this her meal ticket? It has worked many times before, regardless of guilt or innocence that the accuser goes after the civil case lottery. I can't wait to see what she asks for. Wow, it’s is amazing how this site, which boasts so many liberal views, is ready to condemn the entire Duke Lacrosse team without so much as hearing all the facts. Does it not raise a red flag to anyone that the accuser was found guilty of larceny, assaulting a government official and other charges while in the act of vehicle theft? Does this establish a prior history? I think most of you would say that once a male has committed rape he should be flagged forever as a rapist. Should this girl not be flagged for trying to make a quick buck? Is this her meal ticket? It has worked many times before, regardless of guilt or innocence that the accuser goes after the civil case lottery. I can’t wait to see what she asks for.

]]> by: Alas, a blog » Blog Archive » Link Farm and Open Thread #18 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/03/29/the-gang-rape-is-the-essential-scene-of-the-patriarchy/#comment-65249 Wed, 05 Apr 2006 18:44:59 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/03/29/the-gang-rape-is-the-essential-scene-of-the-patriarchy/#comment-65249 [...] Pandagon: The Gang Rape Is The Essential Scene Of Patriarchy My favorite post I've read in the last week; spot-on analysis from Amanda. Ginmar's post commenting on Amanda's is excellent, also. [...] […] Pandagon: The Gang Rape Is The Essential Scene Of Patriarchy My favorite post I’ve read in the last week; spot-on analysis from Amanda. Ginmar’s post commenting on Amanda’s is excellent, also. […]

]]> by: the procrastinators handbook http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/03/29/the-gang-rape-is-the-essential-scene-of-the-patriarchy/#comment-64246 Sun, 02 Apr 2006 14:40:27 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/03/29/the-gang-rape-is-the-essential-scene-of-the-patriarchy/#comment-64246 <strong>More on the Duke Gang Rape Casefo...</strong> The recent explosion of posts about the Duke University gang rape has gotten me thinking a lot about the intersections of race, gender, class, and sexuality. There have been some really interesting posts about how these intersections are playing out i... More on the Duke Gang Rape Casefo…

The recent explosion of posts about the Duke University gang rape has gotten me thinking a lot about the intersections of race, gender, class, and sexuality. There have been some really interesting posts about how these intersections are playing out i…

]]> by: ginmar http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/03/29/the-gang-rape-is-the-essential-scene-of-the-patriarchy/#comment-64192 Sun, 02 Apr 2006 08:37:05 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/03/29/the-gang-rape-is-the-essential-scene-of-the-patriarchy/#comment-64192 That's only if you accept his own self-reporting. Any guy who commits a rape---and a gang rape at that---is pretty much beyond the pale. And isn't it interesting that people think rape victims have no credibility, while it's unfair to think that such an attitude removes their pretense of fairness, especially when they make a living defending rapists? I'm still waiting, TalkLeft. Why are you so fond of Matthew Hale? That’s only if you accept his own self-reporting. Any guy who commits a rape—and a gang rape at that—is pretty much beyond the pale.

And isn’t it interesting that people think rape victims have no credibility, while it’s unfair to think that such an attitude removes their pretense of fairness, especially when they make a living defending rapists?

I’m still waiting, TalkLeft. Why are you so fond of Matthew Hale?

]]> by: Djur http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/03/29/the-gang-rape-is-the-essential-scene-of-the-patriarchy/#comment-64188 Sun, 02 Apr 2006 05:48:22 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/03/29/the-gang-rape-is-the-essential-scene-of-the-patriarchy/#comment-64188 Regarding the mentality of gang rape: there is a chapter of Nathan McCall's <i>Makes Me Wanna Holler</i> that deals in some explicit detail with the (in his youth) common form of gang rape called a 'train'. According to the book, he himself took part in one of these (for the macho social reasons discussed here). I certainly would not consider his case a representative one, but I think he may be at least one example of a person who took part in a sexual assault who was later rehabilitated. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679740708/sr=8-1/qid=1143974447/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-2511015-7124750?%5Fencoding=UTF8 I am merely presenting this in response to several posters above who questioned whether someone in such a position could ever be rehabilitated. Beyond that, I entirely agree with the characterization of gang rape as a microcosm of the patriarchy and I do not intend to justify it. Regarding the mentality of gang rape: there is a chapter of Nathan McCall’s Makes Me Wanna Holler that deals in some explicit detail with the (in his youth) common form of gang rape called a ‘train’. According to the book, he himself took part in one of these (for the macho social reasons discussed here). I certainly would not consider his case a representative one, but I think he may be at least one example of a person who took part in a sexual assault who was later rehabilitated.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0679740708/sr=8-1/qid=1143974447/ref=pd_bbs_1/104-2511015-7124750?%5Fencoding=UTF8

I am merely presenting this in response to several posters above who questioned whether someone in such a position could ever be rehabilitated. Beyond that, I entirely agree with the characterization of gang rape as a microcosm of the patriarchy and I do not intend to justify it.

]]> by: sophonisba http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/03/29/the-gang-rape-is-the-essential-scene-of-the-patriarchy/#comment-64185 Sun, 02 Apr 2006 05:07:17 +0100 http://pandagon.blogsome.com/2006/03/29/the-gang-rape-is-the-essential-scene-of-the-patriarchy/#comment-64185 <i>And thus we can go to bed happy and secure that We’re Not Like Those Bad People, except the truth is that what separates us from them is not the bright line that we’d like to think it is.</i> People just love to engage in this kind of moralizing homily, don't they? Yours, I mean, not the one you're inventing. <i> it would most certainly be easier for me to stay quiet, just ignore the bad behavior, and rationalize that what’s happening isn’t really happening. </i> You think ignoring and rationalizing gang rape that is <i>happening right next to you</i> would be easy? Most certainly? Good sweet fucking lord Jesus Christ. While you're busy chastising people in love with bright-line morality, you might want to watch your own love-affair with tough-cool moral ambiguity. The only reason a person could say that they honestly don't know what they would do in such a situation is because they <i>have not yet decided.</i> People can be shocked, frozen, taken by terrible surprise by horrific actions they never dreamed they'd see. That's true. But that doesn't apply to gang rape, because all of us know it can happen, because we've read this thread, if nothing else. You don't have to wonder and wonder what you'd do until you're finally faced with it. You can decide right now. <i>I’m not proud of that. I’d like to say that certainly I’d stand up, of course I’d risk ostracism. But I can’t honestly say that. </i> Nothing prevents you from honestly saying it. All you have to do is make up your mind. You have free will. If you're ever a witness to an atrocity, you will still have free will. You have complete power to determine your own future actions. Pretending it's somehow unknowable is the easy, pretend-complex cop-out. Making the commitment is the hard part - but not that hard. And thus we can go to bed happy and secure that We’re Not Like Those Bad People, except the truth is that what separates us from them is not the bright line that we’d like to think it is.

People just love to engage in this kind of moralizing homily, don’t they? Yours, I mean, not the one you’re inventing.

it would most certainly be easier for me to stay quiet, just ignore the bad behavior, and rationalize that what’s happening isn’t really happening.

You think ignoring and rationalizing gang rape that is happening right next to you would be easy? Most certainly? Good sweet fucking lord Jesus Christ. While you’re busy chastising people in love with bright-line morality, you might want to watch your own love-affair with tough-cool moral ambiguity.

The only reason a person could say that they honestly don’t know what they would do in such a situation is because they have not yet decided. People can be shocked, frozen, taken by terrible surprise by horrific actions they never dreamed they’d see. That’s true. But that doesn’t apply to gang rape, because all of us know it can happen, because we’ve read this thread, if nothing else. You don’t have to wonder and wonder what you’d do until you’re finally faced with it. You can decide right now.

I’m not proud of that. I’d like to say that certainly I’d stand up, of course I’d risk ostracism. But I can’t honestly say that.

Nothing prevents you from honestly saying it. All you have to do is make up your mind. You have free will. If you’re ever a witness to an atrocity, you will still have free will. You have complete power to determine your own future actions. Pretending it’s somehow unknowable is the easy, pretend-complex cop-out. Making the commitment is the hard part - but not that hard.

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