Blog: Blitzed
Author: Blitzgal
I recently read a very interesting post by The Fat Lady Sings via the Koufax Awards nominees for best blog posts of 2005. It’s entitled “Why Do So Many Men Hate Women,” and it discusses the reactions women often get when they talk about rape and its impact on women in general. The comments to this post and a subsequent one entitled “Misogyny at it’s Finest” (also nominated for a Koufax) were fascinating. Many people quickly dismissed all of TFLS’s comments and fixated on what she didn’t say (and therefore apparently ignored). She didn’t mention false rape reports, which many commenters were very angry about. Apparently when discussing the effects of rape on women, if you don’t mention the fact that there are selfish people in this world who are willing to file false police reports in order to hurt others, then…that’s really bad.
A few commenters noted studies that claim up to half of all reported rapes are false. That number sounded extraordinarily high, so I did a quick Internet search to see what I could find. I found an article by Glenn Sacks that was published in the Los Angeles Daily Journal and the San Francisco Daily Journal in September 2004 called “Research Show False Accusations of Rape Common.” He similarly appears to cite evidence that 40% of all reported rapes are found to be false. However, when one parses his article a bit, one can shed some light on these disheartening numbers.
According to a 1996 Department of Justice Report, of the roughly 10,000 sexual assault cases analyzed with DNA evidence over the previous seven years, 2,000 exluded the primary suspect, and another 2,000 were inconclusive. The report notes that these figures mirror an informal National Institute of Justice survey of private laboratories, and suggests there exists “some strong, underlying systemic problems that generate erroneous accusations and convictions.”
All right, let’s start here. First of all, the most important thing to note is that when considering numbers from the Bureau of Justice Statistics, we are only dealing with rapes that have been reported to the authorities. That’s obvious, but it needs to be pointed out. Because there is a significant number of rapes that are never reported. The victims (male AND female) are embarrassed by what happened, they may blame themselves, or they may simply want the entire issue to just “go away,” and not want to deal with the justice system, which can feel just as intrusive as the crime itself. Whatever the reasoning, the justice system is therefore blind to those incidents. But that doesn’t change the fact that the crime occurred.
So, right off the bat we have a total number of rapes that falls below the actual incidence of rape in this country. Now, on to the second point. 20% of DNA testing exluded the primary suspect of the rape. Note that this does not claim that all 2,000 of these incidents were the result of malicious false reporting by the victim. This is a point that is rarely made by people who want to argue that false rape is used as a weapon against men.
Here is a local example of a “false report.” In Wisconsin, a man named Steven Avery was convicted of raping a woman. His conviction in the mid 80’s pre-dated DNA testing. Later testing showed that he was not the rapist, and he was released from prison two years ago after spending 17 years behind bars. This obviously was a miscarriage of justice. But did the victim maliciously identify Avery as her attacker? When reading a list of her injuries, and discovering that she was viciously beaten as well as raped by a stranger, one can understand how she may have misidentified her attacker. Witness testimony is notoriously unreliable, no matter how much weight the justice system grants it. Two people who witness the same event will relate extremely conflicting details about it after the fact. However, this case would have been included in the 20% of incidents of reports that were later discovered to be false. Is it fair then to take those numbers and then portray a stereotype of rape accusers as largely being “motivated by a need for an alibi or a desire for revenge” as Glenn Sacks puts it?
The second 20% cited in this study is listed as “inconclusive.” Obviously this number includes any botched examination of the evidence and human error in the lab. Again, we can hardly assume that all of these cases are the result of malicious women who are out for revenge.
Finally, one more point to make about the incidence of false rape reports. We have a number of rapes that never get reported and thus are invisible in these statistics. Yet conversely, 100% of women who purposely file a false rape report are represented in the statistics. Doesn’t it thus make sense that when considering the total number of reported rapes, those that are found to be false will tend to be overrepresented in that total?Â
Let’s put it in simplistic terms, and I’m wholly making these numbers up to make my point. There are 10 total rapes. Only 6 of these rapes are reported to the authorities, which means that only 60% of the rapes are visible to the justice system. 2 of those incidents are found to be false reports. 1 of those incidents is the result of a mistaken identification on the part of the victim, and the other is a malicious false report. Now to the justice system, this means that 33% of all rapes are false reports. However, when considering the total number of rapes and the fact that one of those was not maliciously false, the percent of false rape reports of the sort that Mr. Sacks is attempting to represent is actually 10%. That is a pretty big difference.
This post is getting huge, but I just want to discuss one other issue regarding rape, and that is fear. The fear of rape is something that I truly do not think men fully grasp. I know that men are raped, and that in certain contexts (particularly prison), men do have a legitimate fear of being raped. However, for women the fear of rape cannot be reduced to a particular context. It is eternal. The fact that in our society women are ultimately seen as being responsible for avoiding their own rape certainly doesn’t help stem that fear.
If I meet a man I like and spend time with him only to have him force himself on me because he bought me dinner and it’s time for me to reciprocate, then that’s my fault because I shouldn’t have been alone with a man I hardly know…or I was dressed too provacatively…or I shouldn’t have accepted dinner if I wasn’t going to put out…or I lead him on in some other way. If I go outside alone at night and am raped by a stranger, it’s my fault because I should know better than to walk alone. If my boyfriend’s friend tends to spend time at our place and one day while my boyfriend isn’t around he forces himself on me, then that’s my fault because I was too flirty, or again shouldn’t have been alone with him, etc.
Hey, sometimes I react to these social cues as well. When a young woman was recently found murdered after she went home with a man she’d just met at a local bar, my first reaction was to think that obviously she was a party girl and that she bore responsibility for what happened. But you know what? That’s extremely unfair. What right does any person have to KILL someone because she went home with him? On the one hand, because we live in a violent society in which rape does and will happen, women do need to be careful. But to unload the full responsibility of avoiding rape onto the victim of that crime is ultimately ridiculous. No, I’m not saying that we should all run naked down the street at 2 AM. I’m saying that it’s time for the perpetrators of crimes to ultimately bear the full responsibility and judgment for their actions.
77 Responses to “Culture of Fear”
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Just reading the post, that data would also exclude all reports that DNA was not available for it seem. So lower that percentage a bit more.
Good post, and it deserves a repost of what many will have already seen:
RAPE PREVENTION ADVICE FOR MEN
If a woman is drunk, don’t rape her.
If a woman is walking alone at night, don’t rape her.
If a women is drugged and unconscious, don’t rape her.
If a woman is wearing a short skirt, don’t rape her.
If a woman is jogging in a park at 5 am, don’t rape her.
If a woman looks like your ex-girlfriend you’re still hung up on, don’t rape her.
If a woman is asleep in her bed, don’t rape her.
If a woman is asleep in your bed, don’t rape her.
If a woman is doing her laundry, don’t rape her.
If a woman is in a coma, don’t rape her.
If a woman changes her mind in the middle of or about a particular activity, don’t rape her.
If a woman has repeatedly refused a certain activity, don’t rape her.
If a woman is not yet a woman, but a child, don’t rape her.
If your girlfriend or wife is not in the mood, don’t rape her.
If your step-daughter is watching tv, don’t rape her.
If you break into a house and find a woman there, don’t rape her.
If your friend thinks it’s okay to rape someone, tell him it’s not, and that he’s not your friend.
If your “friend” tells you he raped someone, report him to the police.
If your frat-brother or another guy at the party tells you there’s an unconscious woman upstairs and It’s your turn, don’t rape her, call the police and tell the guy he’s a rapist.
Tell your sons, god-sons, nephews, grandsons, sons of friends it’s not okay to rape someone.
Don’t tell your women friends how to be safe and avoid rape.
Don’t imply that she could have avoided it if she’d only done/not done x.
Don’t imply that it’s in any way her fault.
Don’t let silence imply agreement when someone tells you he “got some” with the drunk girl.
Don’t perpetuate a culture that tells you that you have no control over or responsibility for your actions. You can, too, help yourself.
It drives me absolutely nuts when people like Glenn Sacks don’t bother to distinguish between false reports and mistaken arrests.
There’s a HUGE difference between someone like Cathleen Crowell, who falsely reported a rape (and let an innocent stranger go to prison) because she was afraid of being punished by her parents, and Jennifer Thompson, who mistakenly identified the wrong man after she was raped.
Here’s the difference, fellas: JENNIFER THOMPSON WAS RAPED. She didn’t falsely claim to be raped. She was raped. That she misidentified the rapist is an unfortunate mistake (and a nightmarish one for the man incorrectly accused) but it’s not even in the same universe as making the story up out of whole cloth.
The kinds of men who use a stat like “40% of reported rapes turn out to be false reports” are using that misleading number to suggest that in about half of reported rapes, some woman claims to be raped, but actually hasn’t been–with the implication that these women simply make up the lie to get someone they don’t like in deep trouble.
If I am reading this right, the 40% stat has nothing to do with women pretending to be raped. Rather, DNA evidence shows that about 20% of the time the woman misidentifies the rapist, which is hardly surprising considering the traumatic nature of the crime, and another 20% of the time the DNA evidence doesn’t clearly identify the accused as the criminal. In no case does the report suggest that these women were not raped. Misidentifying the rapist does not mean no rape occurred.
This is a reprehensible misuse of data, which allows the abusive crime to be dismissed, or at least unfairly casts doubt on victims.
And it allows certain kinds of men to cast all women as liars.
The other thing that is overlooked when considering false rape reporting is that false rape reporting wouldn’t be possible if real rape didn’t happen in the first place. So really it’s men that need to take a look at the actions of their fellow man, not the actions of a minority of screwed up, vindictive false reporters.
Thank you Amanda for citing my articles on this subject. They still garner polarized feedback - which initially surprised me; but now, unfortunately, I consider it par for the course. The more violent and/or unapologetically virulent commentary I still usually delete. It nauseates me - and quite frankly as it doesn’t inform any discussion on the subject I deem it to be unnecessary. Amazing, isn’t it how many people seem willing to hear something quite different from what I was saying?
What did you do to your web page? Genius! It’s perfect! Easy on my tired eyes, loads in a flash, no annoying graphics to distract me from the all-important text… please don’t ever change it again!
To further lower the numbers, consider, if you will:
A false report and a false accusation are not the same thing but are often treated as such in statistics.
A woman may claim she was raped to attribute a pregnancy to something beyond control. Perhaps she lives with a father she fears or one of a thousand reasons. That is wholly different than pointing at a man and saying, “he did it, arrest him.”
Consider how difficult it is to prove rapes that actually happened. It is almost impossible to prove one that didn’t. If there was no intercourse there will be no semen, hence no DNA. There will be no trauma. There will be nothing.
Then you have the “It was consentual,” v. “no it wasn’t.” Difficult at best. Especially if it is a false charge and it was indeed consentual. But suppose it wasn’t consentual but the jury refuses to convict. Is that counted as a false charge. “Not Guilty” doesn’t mean it didn’t happen it only means the prosecution didn’t prove it’s case.
So how many men are rotting in prison after being charged by a woman with no other motive than maliciousness. Damn few, I’d guess. It happens; but then so do blue moons.
If rape accusations were such a great way to back at someone, wouldn’t men use them as well? It’s not like men can’t be as malicious as women. Heck, why assume rape accusations are the only way a woman can get back at a man?
And for guys who are so afraid of being accused of rape: stop sleeping around with those malicious women. It’s you’re fault for getting drunk around all those women.
That study cited shows some of the long-standing problems with eyewitness identification (it isn’t as reliable as most would make it out to be), but seems to have nothing at all to do with falsely accusing someone of rape.
Having spent time in criminal court, and now doing family law, I have yet to see a false accusation of rape. I’ve seen several false accusations of domestic violence (usually by the batterer against the battered when he/she is hit with a restraining order) but never rape.
Oh god, I read those posts at Fat Lady. One guy compares men raping to women being passive agressive. Yeah, a woman’s nasty comment is the equivlent of being raped. Mostly I was pissed off at the guy’s who didn’t seem to realize we live in a patriarchical society. This isn’t radical feminist stuff, this is just realize that a country that takes 144 years to give women the vote might be sexist towards women.
I recently heard, as testimony in a legal hearing, a law instructor had been COUNSELLED for telling the class that HER personal experience showed that @ 50% of the sexual assault cases with which she had been involved were false. It wasn’t PC enough, eventhough it was her own personal experience.
It’s anecdotal evidence, but more interesting in that it was presented by woman lawyer WITH EXPERIENCE. Not surveys and not googled articles.
It is my opinion and experience that the feminist pendulum has reached its zenith and is already returning to some opposite, past center, point. I also suspect that what is being sensed as woman hating by the members of the feminist movement is the push back from men who are tired of the misandry.
The sexual misconduct double standard has gotten so bad that in some work environments women are routinely shunned, except fo PURE business dialogue, because it is safer than any kind of normal dialogue between the sexes. (My flame suit is on with this comment.)
Ugh. Glenn Sacks. I swear, sharing a last name with that fuckwit is tres’ embarassing. Maybe I should take my husband’s surname after all, just to avoid the association. >:
Me, I always liked Golda Meir’s suggestion. which she made when she was Prime Minister of Israel. There had been a lot of rapes occurring, so one of the male ministers said “Too many women are being hurt. We need to declare a curfew on all women. Meir retorted “It’s a man who is committing the crimes, so why not declare a curfew on all men?”
As a guy I am mystified by the “you forgot about false accusations / violence against men, etc.” reactions to posts you describe above. The rhetorical fallacy is always the same: a post about issue a did not mention tangental issue b, therefore the opinions are invalid, even though b does not invalidate a.
This does not mean an actual problematic post gets a free pass, but one should address the actual context. I.e. I might take issue with a post about misogyny in rock which accuses guitar instrumentals of being a tool of the patriarchy, I might take issue. These guys would do something like saying “what about sexism in rap? You ignore that which proves you are reverse racist and therefore invalid.”
As someone who reads a lot of self-proclaimed misogynist philosophers, I notice most of their arguments rely on the same unreason they say women usee, although they call it something else. My favorite: when Dave Sim says women always argue with anecdotal not factual evidence and uses stories to back up this assertion.
Smitty:
Glad your suit is on…
YOU ARE A MORON. YOU SHOULD DIE. MAY YOUR PEE PEE SHRIVEL.
Soooo….
You won’t talk a female co-worker about the weather or how the coffee machine is a piece of shit or whether the office ought have a Christmas party, etc., et. al., ad nauseum because she’ll charge you with harassment? Are you feeling a touch repressed, Bucky, ‘cause you can’t tall sophomoric sex jokes? Jesus on jumpcar, I wish you worked for me so I could fire your ass.
The Central Park Jogger case fasley arrested and jailed 4 Black youths. She testified and indentified them. It wasn’t until years later when DNA testing was available that they were aquitted.
So if we use Glenn Sacks definition she was never beaten and gang raped.
Smitty, there’s a reason why women hate you, and it isn’t misandry, and it isn’t feminism. It’s you. Look in the mirror. You are your problem.
I said my suit was on!
“To Magis: MAY YOUR PEE PEE SHRIVEL” I’m so laughing at you! YOU MAKE MY POINT RE: Misandry!!!! Why I’m laughing so hard is that I am already of an age that my Pee Pee doesn’t even matter!!!!
Re: Samantha Vimes- You also make my point.
There is ALWAYS a countervailing force in social/political situations. Misogeny/misandry and misandry/misogeny. You ladies made my day.
Thanks
Maybe Glenn Sacks will write another article, based on how many unsolved homicide cases and acquittals there are at trial, about how many false murder accusations we see in the US. My mind would be boggled if it had any more boggle left.
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/rsarp00.pdf
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/ovc/ncvrw/2005/pg5o.html
have statistics on how often rapes go unreported, since nothing was cited above.
“Only 36 percent of completed rapes were reported to the police during the years 1992 to 2000. Thirty-four percent of the attempted rapes, and 26 percent of the completed and attempted sexual assaults were reported.
A recently published eight-year study indicates that when perpetrators of completed rape are current or former husbands or boyfriends, the crimes go unreported to the police 77 percent of the time. When the perpetrators are friends or acquaintances, the rapes go unreported 61 percent of the time. When the perpetrators are strangers, the rapes go unreported 54 percent of the time.”
“It’s anecdotal evidence, but more interesting in that it was presented by woman lawyer WITH EXPERIENCE. Not surveys and not googled articles.”
I do find it interesting that you’d hold
anecdotal evidence as being more relevant or true than studies, statistics, and general surveys. I’m not sure I understand the reasoning behind that, though.
I’m also puzzled at how it could possibly be that difficult to have a conversation with a woman without her unjustly accusing you of sexual harassment unless you’re the less-subtle equivalent of Todd from “Scrubs.”
A: It was a joke, moron. Glue a catcher’s mitt to your skull.
B. Might we please have some evidence of the great wave of shunning of women you say is going on?
C. What age would that be, 107? I’m a semi-geezer and mine still matters to me, which leads me to:
D. I’m not a lady and I still think you’re a moron.
E. The only person I’ve fired for gross sexual misconduct was a woman.
F. Why, pray do tell, are you in such mortal fear of being charged with sexual harassment?
G. Do you long, Bucky, for the good old days of unpunished ass pinching?
H. How exactly did Sam make your point?
I. You are a moron. Oh, I used that one. You’re goofy as a stomped on pisant.
The Central Park Jogger case fasley arrested and jailed 4 Black youths. She testified and indentified them. It wasn’t until years later when DNA testing was available that they were aquitted.
Er, no, she didn’t identify them, because she had been beaten so badly that she was in a coma for weeks and couldn’t recall any of the events. Overzealous prosecutors were to blame in that case. DNA evidence eventually showed that a career rapist was to blame.
If you think the Central Park Jogger case — where the woman was raped and beaten so badly that she suffered BRAIN DAMAGE — is your example of a false accusation, what the fuck is your criteria for a “real” case?
Seriously, what makes guys become like this? They’re not uncommon on the web (I suppose the anonymity makes it easier to express themselves) but reading what they write is like being blindsighted. Obviously these guys are monumentally effed-up, and not just on the internet, but how do they get that way?
(They’re also an argument against the fundie assertion that homosexuality is a choice: These guys are invariably straight, despite their gut-deep hatred for women; if it were a matter of choice, why wouldn’t they prefer the alternative?)
Magis - please get a grip. It’s always a joke when your caught out!
Name calling is the point. Look up the meaning of counter vailing force, please!
Chances are in the REAL world versus this virtual - I would be the one pursuiing firing.
Re: my own fear of SexHar, in my life I learned that the only solution to SexHar is to immediately apologize whenever you CAN determine that somene (male/female) may have been offended. The determination is the issue. There are too many SexHar sex assault cases tha APPEAR to be false. What is missed is that the victim in these cases NEVER gets any satisfaction. Usually, just a RUINED life!
My original point was that men are beginning to push back because the feminist pendulum has moved past it’s point of equilibrium.
Your’s and Sam’s vitriol was my point. An open mind is an amazing thing.
No, I’m not saying that we should all run naked down the street at 2 AM.
Oh I’ve done that, 2am is the safest time to run down the street naked actually, even if there was a serious reason to fear stranger rape, most of the weirdos are asleep or too soused to grapple. Rapists need their fugly sleep after all.
And I totally concur with smitty, DoWn wIHt the MatrIArChy! When will women cease raping men due to their constant matriarchy dictated need to constantly reaffirm their womanhood!? Why can’t women just get over their invisible female privelage and treat men as PEOPLE and not as lumps of meat to be used as though they were little more than masturbatory aids!?
P.S. ICP rUlz!
P.P.S. hehe, magistupid said “wee wee”!
P.P.P.S. Sam is a hysterical, softly spoken, overly emotional and calm meaniehead!
if it were a matter of choice, why wouldn’t they prefer the alternative?
I’ve met guys who I swear only go out with women so they can hurt them as hard as possible, for them heterosexuality is more of a hobby than a sexual orientation, some men collect trains, they punish women for imagined slights.
I recently heard, as testimony in a legal hearing, a law instructor had been COUNSELLED for telling the class that HER personal experience showed that @ 50% of the sexual assault cases with which she had been involved were false. It wasn’t PC enough, eventhough it was her own personal experience.
Citation, please, with links. Otherwise, this is about as credible as a story that ends, “And when he came around to her side of the car to open her door, there was a HOOK hanging from the handle!”
Smitty:
A. Know meaning of countervailing. First, it’s one word, buy dictionary.
B. Misandry/Misogeny are not countervailing forces, they are mirror images. For definition, read Hegel.
C. You had to apologize? Apparently more than once? Clueless…amazing. Care to tell us what stupid thing you said that you had to apologize for?
D. Men are pushing back? Evidence? What is it that they’re doing? Demanding the right to harass?
E. Re: usual right-wing false accusation bullshit without evidence…zzzzzzzz
F. You’re a moron. When in hole, quit digging.
Fitness report:
This employee should go far and start right away.
This employee has delusions of adequacy.
R. Mildred:
fugly sleep. Priceless. Is fugly like ugmo?
“And when he came around to her side of the car to open her door, there was a HOOK hanging from the handle!�
Excellent point, and a good laugh to boot. Thanks.
Funny. Who’s the “victim” of sexual harassment, Smitty?
Lauren:
The victim is the harasser because after all what’s a little pinch on the ass among friends, dirty bitch doesn’t have a sense of humor and after all he was only trying to be flattering.
I’m thinkin’ here Smitty is sounding like a guy that got busted. $5 to your favorite charity?
From the accused’s perspective a false accusation isn’t any better than a misidentification. The bottom line is someone made a claim they could not be completely sure about. If they misidentify as often as its known that people do, how do you ever take their word for it?
You can scream about the horror of the crime, but you’re just asking we make two victims rather than one. Personally, I’d never convict for rape without DNA evidence. Confessions can be coerced, victims can be wrong. Genetics don’t lie and they rarely lead to mistakes if testing is done properly.
What exactly makes this lawyer more authoritative on the subject?
* Depending on what her practice actually was (family law or criminal law?), she likely has a skewed sample.
* Her experience involves cases where she presumably had a stake in the
* How does she know they were false? Because the verdict said so? Because the defendant told her? Personal intuition?
This whole thing sounds about as reliable (and appropriate) as a prosecutor telling a law school class that 99% of criminal defendents are guilty.
You know, it’s common knowledge that for a white person to ogle and ask to touch a black person’s hair is offensive. It doesn’t stop certain US presidents from indulging in the habit, but it’s certainly widely accepted that it’s wrong.
And yet the feeling among men really is “why aren’t women flattered when men slap their ass and whistle at them?” Of course, it’s more or less equivalent behavior. I think the difference is because, while a small portion of the philosophy and theory behind the African-American civil rights battle ended up being incorporated into the American zeitgeist, feminist theory was never assimilated at all.
Most Americans, male or female, will today identify feminism at best as “wanting men and women to be treated equally.” Of course, this devolves in the mind almost instantly to “wanting men and women to be granted the same legal rights and paid the same amount,” which has resulted in a lot of the backward slide in gender portrayal in our culture in the last few decades.
In any case, I’d also like to say I think it’s amusing that Smitty thinks that the feminist movement was about misandry, and that (apparently) the entire struggle for gender equality can be summed up as man-hating and woman-hating alternately coming into vogue. I’m sure he believes the same about the African-American civil rights movement, which was obviously a “pendulum” swinging between white-hating and black-hating being popular.
Finally, alsis39.5 is as fine an emissary of our embattled region as I could hope for. So, uh, hi from Portland.
2,000 exluded the primary suspect, and another 2,000 were inconclusive
Just like to point out, though it has been kind of touched on by others, that the 2000 number quoted were those excluded as “suspects”. That does not mean those identified as the attackers by the woman reporting the rape. I think this number includes all those suspected by police either by direct identification by the victim or developed by the police themselves. This number could include a lot of catetories as well as false reports by the woman. It could include those mentioned above like the Central Park Jogger case as well as when a woman reports a rape, doesn’t identify (for whatever reasons) her attacker so the police develop a suspect through investigation. It could also include misidentification of attackers by witnesses to the attack.
The other 2000 cases quoted as inconclusive points up a problem with DNA labs, which I’ve always been concerned with myself. I know if it were my head on the block, I’d want different labs evaluating the sample with my DNA. A lab without proper procedures can easily get them mixed up, cross-contaminated, or whatever.
I often get frustrated with men who don’t understand what it is like to be a woman in this country. You are constantly on alert. Like the elk I often see where I live. I know my friends and I agree that in our own homes if someone breaks in at night, we aren’t thinking burglary like men do, we’re thinking rape.
My daughter got her drivers license last week and it really does upset me that along with driving lessons, I have to give her “personal safety” lessons. There was a girl raped in the bathroom of her high school last fall. How do you send your daughter off to school, try to tell her she will be safe and her response is that she was in the classroom next door to the bathroom where the rape occurred at the time of the rape and she always had figured that if people were nearby she was safe? She didn’t know that a guy with a knife could just walk into a building with hundreds of people in it and rape a girl. Letting her go to school after that was one of the hardest things I have ever done. But I know that she can be raped practically anywhere she goes. If there are men who can’t understand that there is something wrong with our society when women aren’t safe everywhere and at anytime, then I think there is something seriously wrong with those men!
Magis:
No, no, that would be wrong. Much better to ensure he has a female supervisor, and female workers … and wait til he explodes from trying to stay ‘polite’.
Timothy R: “Personally, I’d never convict for rape without DNA evidence.”
More Bureau of Justice Statisics fun (and thanks nerdlet for bringing more stats into the conversation; I had so much more I could have talked about but the post was so huge already):
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/html/cjusew96/cpo.htm
“The number of persons convicted in 1994 of rape for every 1,000 alleged rapists was 188.”
This means that of the cases that are actually reported and subsequently go to trial (so we’re already down to a very small percentage of all rapes here), less than one in five lead to convictions. And here’s the part that exasperates me the most when it comes to folks who try citing 50% “lying bitches” stats. Rapists are rarely convicted. And when they are, they don’t tend to do all that much time. In a perfect world, people who file false police reports will face justice, but so will people who forcibly rape.
Smitty:
As a rape survivor, I’ve come into contact with a lot of other women who’ve been assaulted. In fact, more than half of my female friends have been sexually assaulted or raped. Therefore, I surmise that more than 50% of ALL women have been raped. And of course I’m right, because as a woman who has been assaulted, I’m a rape expert.
To all, I apologize for my use of hyperbole in response to Smitty’s anecdote, and for responding in rapid succession. I was without Internet access yesterday so I’m just now catching up on comments. Full disclosure–while in college I was fortunate enough to chase off the man who’d broken into the women’s bathroom of my dorm building while I was showering before he was able to hurt me. I don’t think he expected a big country girl taller than he was and perfectly willing to put up a fight. But now I realize that I should have put a disclaimer on my sarcasm. I was fortunate enough to avoid being raped. They never did catch the “townie” who’d broken into the dorm, even though he was found still wandering through the building a half hour after I called campus police.
I know that most of this thread has been taken up by the former point and a very stupid troll, but I’d like to give an approving “harumph” to:
About a year ago, I consented to go and see Sin City. I knew it was going to be film noir, and that there would be a fair bit of misogyny in it, but I was not expecting what I saw. (Honestly, when I saw Quentin Tarrantino’s name splash up on the screen as a producer, I should have gone with my gut instinct and walked out of the theater). Pretty much every woman in that movie was a rape victim or a potential rape victim. Oh, and they needed the men to save them. Like pregnancy, men have no real point of reference for rape and rape culture, particularly hetero rape culture. No matter how hard our pop culture tries to create a “woman rapes man” scenario, it always comes off as contrived and stupid. The worst part of that movie, however, wasn’t the fact that it was a 2-hour paternalistic rape fantasy… it was the fans. Muslims have cartoons of the Prophet, Christians have The Last Temptation of Christ, and apparantly, Comic Book fans have Sin City. Trying to explain to them what it was like, as a woman, to watch that movie, I might as well have been holding the melon baller and telling them to drop their pants. Most of the responses are along the lines of “You just don’t get it,” which I find very amusing. I as a woman, seeing reprentations of my sex up on screen, just don’t get it. They, as men, who have no such point of reference, but understand all things so much better than the silly female, get it. To me, this is what rape culture/fear of rape is.
Well, Smitty’s awake again, and looking forward to rejoining a rational discussion. What do I find? Nothing but Smitty bashing. All I was trying to do was provide a different view point. Too often on these sites a single view prevails with no tolerance for another.
It was a test. Y’all failed. I will contiue to lurk, and whenever a subject entices, I will attempt to engage in rational discussion.
Smitty out!
Ya got your liars, your damn liars and then ya got your statistics. A real nice job by Amanda of actually looking at the study, and the numbers, and thinking about them, and then discussing some of the ways they’ve been manipulated to show whatever the speaker/author wants to show.
My statistics prof (ah, ancient history) told us you could give him a study on any subject, and he’d take the numbers and prove whichever position you chose. It would all sound like it made sense, as long as you didn’t do what Amanda did, actually look at the study and the way the numbers are being used.
A great lesson for all of us who read and accept “studies” every day about all sorts of issues, without ever going to the source (who has the time?).
On the subject of rape, I don’t think the penalties are harsh enough (the damage done is often worse than murder, the victim lives on with pain, sometimes forever). Rape is bad, and so are false accusations of rape, whatever the “real” numbers are (I sure don’t know).
I was all ready to be surprised by the data indicating a ghastly amount of false accusation/false rape reports. Instead, and you hit it right off, what struck me immediately was that what he was saying about the data wasn’t in any way supported by the data. All I saw was a relatively high number of reported erroneous accusations with another not insignificant number of “inconclusive” (which does NOT mean erroneous accusation OR false accusation).
No doubt, there are a small number of truly false accusations made for a handful of reasons but the number is not evident in the data sited. I have, likewise, no doubt that the number of these cases is rare among accusations, likely in the single digit percentile or even the fractional percentile. Erroneous accusation (and conviction) is bad enough, but it is equally bad to put out the suspicion that a significant number of actual reported rapes are false. Prosecutors, defense attorneys and perhaps jurors should be aware of the erroneous accusation problem due to the de facto high error content of eyewitness accounts, but any suggestion of the latter either before or during a case trial is a disservice to the victim and women in general.
People untrained in how to collect and interpret data should not write articles, or make conclusions, based upon something for which they have no understanding or expertise in at all.
Here’s the thing, Smitty. We listened to your viewpoint, and then pointed out the logical fallacy of your viewpoint. That’s not bashing, that’s a discussion.
This post should have been called “Culture of Victimhood”. It’s full of the usual phony statistics and unsupportable nonsense. Typical gender-feminist tripe.
Smitty, the only widespread misandry I know of are male jokes, the kind that make fun of men as unable to do housework, inattentive to their wives’ emotional needs, etc, etc. I don’t like those jokes and tend to speak up against them.
Furthermore, those jokes are used to reinforce the patriarchy. By allowing women to vent a bit, they tend to be steered away from actual action. It is accepted that the function of the man is to drink beer and hold the remote and the function of the woman is to wash dishes. Real feminists don’t reinforce stereotypes, especially ones that trap decent men in unfortunate gender roles and force women to work extra unpaid work.
If you can’t have a conversation without getting accused of sexual harrassment, try talking about the weather… but don’t leer at a woman in a white blouse and say you hope it rains so you can find out what colour bra she is wearing. Seriously… it’s not hard to have an asexual conversation.
I believe in fairness and equal treatment for men, but you made far-reaching statements suggesting that feminism was grinding men down, and you have nothing but vague generalizations, like men being afraid to have social conversations with women, to back it up.
You also called Magis a lady, which means you haven’t been paying attention and that you have assumptions based on your concept of feminists as man-hating she-demons.
Yeah Wally, the Bureau of Justice Statistics…their numbers are completely unsupported!
P.s> To R. Mildred
“P.P.P.S. Sam is a hysterical, softly spoken, overly emotional and calm meaniehead!”
I think I need to turn this into a sig-file somewhere. Thank you!
Citation, please, with links. Otherwise, this is about as credible as a story that ends, “And when he came around to her side of the car to open her door, there was a HOOK hanging from the handle!�
“The comment is coming from inside the blog!
Well blitzgal, that is indeed what Amanda and her crew all said last time that *I* cited those very same stats… so, yes, it’s all garbage.
Lotta stuff on this.
I think the receptive partner and his or her submissive and his dominating role and attitude would be good to examine. There’s a funny ‘greyishness’ in there I can’t finger.
Amanda’s point on fear was right.
Two reasons…
She does of the work of a pregnancy. It is physically (AND socially) costly.
And her social makeup…from eons of imprinted social behavior patterns…probably goes to selecting or at least ‘knowing’ the father.
As in in “Beyond… The Clan of the Cave Bear”
A lot of that just hasn’t yet been outlined in the socio-biologic literature.
All of this entirely aside from the fact that the female receptive tends to be a smaller and physically weaker individual.
firefalluk:
….and has to make the coffee and bring cookies to all the socials.
Sam(antha) Vimes:
I just gotta know…is being a she-demon all sortsa fun?
Smitty:
I note you haven’t answered the questions. You were a naghty boy, weren’t you?
Magis, I think this should answer your question:
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/satanahs.htm
…Satana requires the draining of souls to survive and she can only drain the souls from men, not women. It is not known how many days she can go without taking a soul. To do so, she usually kisses her victim as she draws forth his soul, causing his body to shrivel. The soul would then take the form (visible at least to Satana) of a butterfly-like being, which she would grasp with her fingers. She would then crush the butterfly form, seemingly causing it to disintegrate, but actually absorbing psionic energy from the soul. After she feeds on the power in a soul, the spirit is cast down into her father’s realm of Hell.
After spending time in Hell after her death, Satana learned that by consuming more souls than she needed, she could increase her own power. She also learned that by impregnating weapons with her body fluids, she could gain the soul power of victims slain with those weapons. Further, by marking a man as her servant, she could also gain the power from souls slain by that man, using the above weapons…
You heard it here first.
alsis:
Now that would be a helluva date! But, can she bake cookies?
Sorry. I don’t know the gamer-speak that covers culinary skills. I’m not that kind of geek.
My wife was gang raped when she was in high school– she never reported it. My best friend was raped her first semester in college– she never reported it. All of the women I have known in my life that were raped– not a single one ever reported it.
Sadly, reporting a rape, especially in school situations where the rapist(s) are often not strangers, is pretty rare. Reporting a rape often forces the woman to relive the experience over and over, to have one of the worst, most traumatic experiences of her life made public, to have her honesty/judgement challenged, the reality of her horrible experience questioned publicly. Most rapes are by someone you know, similar to most child abductions in the US. Most women would like to just move on…right or wrong, in my experience that is what I’ve encountered.
Like pregnancy, men have no real point of reference for rape and rape culture, particularly hetero rape culture. No matter how hard our pop culture tries to create a “woman rapes man� scenario, it always comes off as contrived and stupid.
Very critical point, indeed. I don’t think most men intrinsically understand rape or fear of being raped– I’ve met very few men who seem to understand the horror or rape or the fear of being raped. (The exceptions are progressive, empathetic men and fathers/brothers/etc. of women. Often they understand pretty well.) The only way most men can relate to is the idea of being raped is by another man– which, frankly, they run a very low risk of *unless* they are in prison. Men don’t walk in dark, isolated parking lots with their keys laced between their fingers.
I don’t think most men understand the sense of vulernability women often feel, no matter how fierce, strong and independent we are. All women know that rape can happen, even if we are careful, that it limits our sense of freedom, that it is something that we learn to navigate– especially since most women know someone who has been raped.
Wow. It’s fascinating how after I point out misogyny is little more than unreasonable, illogical statements about how women lack reason and logic, we get a bunch of emotional misogynist reactions with the pretense of being more reasonable than women.
I’m a guy and it bugs me when males express opinions based on emotional beliefs this is “gut instinct” while female expresions of the same are “emotional reactions” or “instinct” in a bad way, becuase…um…well it’s a girl doing it and girls a wrong.
I’m mystified. I’m not an especially enlightened person and yet I can accept that sexism exists. I can be more than a hateful or patronizing moron when rape is discussed. I don’t need to pretend I have all the answers or understanding. In short I aspire to mutual humanity — except for Dave Sim and his ilk. They’re loooosers.
To Magis -” You were a naghty boy, weren’t you?” Nope! Just learned some valuable lessons over my life.
Smitty, my heart bleeds for you, you poor man.
Can’t talk to the women at work because of sexual harrassment law - boo hoo. It’s really not difficult to converse with anyone and still avoid a lawsuit, it really is. Most of us are socialised sufficiently to avoiding offending people in day to day conversation.
One guy I worked with proclaimed loudly one day “It’s impossible to even tell a joke at work these days without being sued”. Strangely, despite the many jokes made all day, noone has been sued. Stranger still, he is one of the most offensive young men I have ever met.
And then you claim the downtrodden men are only now ‘pushing back’ against the misandry - I’m so sorry you’ve been subjected to such nastiness. I guess the centuries of being the property of one’s mother or wife, not being ‘capable’ of voting, not having autonomy over you own medical decisions etc must really hurt. Maybe you need equal rights or a penisist movement or something? Dickhead.
“All I was trying to do was provide a different view point. Too often on these sites a single view prevails with no tolerance for another.
It was a test. Y’all failed. I will contiue to lurk, and whenever a subject entices, I will attempt to engage in rational discussion.”
Smitty: Having reviewed your statements in this topic, I’d like to give you a little advice. Never fear - it’s from a Man! No cooties.
First, the prevailing paradigm here is the Rational Discourse model. This means that twice-removed unsourced anecdotes are not viable evidence towards any solid conclusion. Bureau of Justice Statistics/DOJ reports are acceptable, but are to be scrutinized lest they be misused - for example, the Glenn Sacks article cited misuses them.
Second, arguing that bringing a new or different viewpoint to a discussion is an inherent good is fallacious. You will not be welcome in the halls of Harvard’s geology department if you loudly proclaim that the Earth is 9,000 years old. Just so, your words will not fall on receptive ears when you posit a sexual harassment double standard that keeps men from fully participating in the workplace and that a rising “push back from men tired of the misandry” is a good thing to a community that has been engaged for the last few years in an investigation that has led to opposite conclusions. In both cases, your argument would be dismissed - perhaps with rude derision! - because it ignores the conclusions that the hard work of the seriously discoursing members of the community have arrived at. Both communities will proceed to show your their introductory-level textbook (figurative in the case of the feminist community - I recommend Faludi, myself) and the exit and suggest that you choose between them toot-sweet.
In the third place, the grandiose, condescending claim of “It was a test. Y’all failed” gives a sour impression that you are not arguing in good faith and is extremely unlikely to leave anyone well-disposed to you - why should any subsequent statements you put forward be regarded as legitimate contributions to the discussion when you declare that you didn’t argue in good faith and further that you intend to do more of the same in the future ?
In the fourth place, to say that “a single view prevails with no tolerance for another [here]” is a grevious misperception on your part. Dissenters who argue in good faith from solid evidence are valued members of the discussion community. In fact, I seem to recall that that’s where the current headliners got their start.
Fifth, you are not All Men. A claim that anyone who exhibits a dislike for you is necessarily guilty of misandry is, therefore, specious. Claiming that someone’s dislike for you is evidence of misandry is just as bad.
Finally, it seems as though you would benefit from studying heuristics. You fit the heuristic for - to be polite - Anti-Feminist Persons With Whom Argument Is Not Productive. You have not provided, by your behavior, anything to call that judgement into question - indeed, your use of shoddy evidence, your arguments in bad faith and subsequent boasting, and your condescencion are all reinforcing the identification.
When you begin as a mere contrarian and proceed with every subsequent statement to further distance yourself from consideration as a serious contributor to the discourse, you simply cannot expect an indefinite extension of grace from a community that has experienced, over and over again, maltreatment by a power structure whose position you mimic.
In summary, you’re not fooling anyone.
Being a she-demon really isn’t all that different from humanity.
http://www.krakowstudios.com/
Pity us she-demons. Family squabbles, getting in trouble at school for listening to Christian rock, summoned by clueless wonders, and so much trouble finding clothing that doesn’t make the snake-back look fat.
:-)
Mighty Ponygirl
I rented Sin City a few months ago and turned the stupid thing off less than fifteen minutes into it because the badly done artistic coloring and the obvious “all women are sluts and/or victims” that you mentioned.
Mi-voz,
I think 90% of what you wrote– while both eloquent and spot-on– was probably over Smitty’s head. Good effort, though.
Frankly, the defining characteristic of most trolls of all stripes is an m.o. that is abusive, condescending, and disrespectful followed by snide comments about how “we” are all rude and intolerant. They wouldn’t know “rational discourse” if it fell out of the sky and struck them on the head.
If they were making a genuine attempt to debate or discuss the many sides of an issue they wouldn’t be considered a troll.
Interesting statistics. As others have said, DNA evidence excluding the defendant does not meant that the woman has not been violated in the worst way. Plus, witness identification is horribly inaccurate. This serves to make “stranger” rape cases rely heavily on DNA. Thus, education for women and men is critical to establish the importance and lack of shame of going immediately to the hospital/police. Time is of the essence. That process should be made as accepting as possible with the least amount of shame and embarassment possible.
Rapes by acquantances are much more difficult cases. Once again, accurate statistics are horribly difficult due to the number of women who do not report the rapes because of the shame/embarassment in the process. Moreover, these cases almost always boil down to a he said/she said scenerio. The more cooberative evidence, the easier it is for a conviction. (ie reported quickly, marks, noises heard by others.)
I would be curious about the ratio of rape charges to convictions, inlcuding convictions of lessor offices. I am sure that information is somewhere.
I have heard often on these boards that rape convictions are not frequent. That is not my experience, so I would be interested in some more information about that topic.
Certainly, a very important component on this topic is to teach boys from a young age that no means no whenever it occurs. (ie from fully clothed to mid-stroke.)
mi-voz - Very eloquent, condescending and Professional. Do you teach? Furthermore; when you say: “When you begin as a mere contrarian and proceed with every subsequent statement to further distance yourself from consideration …” and then the FIRST response (see 1 below) certainly support your assertion of Rational Discourse. I would have loved to cite the case, but it is still ongoing with 4 players, AND THEY ARE ALL VICTIMS, but only one offended party.
Zoe Kentucky - Below are the examples of what you espouse. “They wouldn’t know “rational discourseâ€Â? if it fell out of the sky and struck them on the head.” The first response was:
1. YOU ARE A MORON. YOU SHOULD DIE. MAY YOUR PEE PEE SHRIVEL.”
and on and on…
2. Jesus on jumpcar, I wish you worked for me so I could fire your ass.
3. Smitty, there’s a reason why women hate you, and it isn’t misandry, and it isn’t feminism. It’s you. Look in the mirror. You are your problem.
4. You are a moron. Oh, I used that one. You’re goofy as a stomped on pisant.
5. You’re a moron. When in hole, quit digging.
Fitness report:
This employee should go far and start right away.
This employee has delusions of adequacy.
6. No, no, that would be wrong. Much better to ensure he has a female supervisor, and female workers … and wait til he explodes from trying to stay ‘polite’.
7.Maybe you need equal rights or a penisist movement or something? Dickhead.
So mi-voz the rational discourse and openn mindednessess you claim are evidenced where? To quote a great voice in the wilderness. “In summary, you’re not fooling anyone.”
Something isn’t ringing true, Smitty. C’mon. Tell Unca Magis what you said to the nice lady. Confession is good for the soul, my son. Did you think it was innocent and she didn’t?
So when a female co-worker says “Good Morning” Do you say “Leave me alone!”
When she asks you, “…is there any more copier paper?” Do you stick your fingers in your ears and and yell LA LA LA LA, can’t hear you as you run down the hall.
When you say shit like we won’t even talk to women unless we have to, on a feminsit blog no less, you might as well paint a six by six bullseye on your ass. I like to have intelligent arguments with intelligent conservatives, but c’mon. That was about the dumbest thing I ever heard.
In case you haven’t figured it out by now my profession is Human Resources and I deal with sexual harassment all the time. In all but the most egregious cases, one remark isn’t going to get you canned or ruin your life. If the big mean gurlz scare you, just come see Unca Magis and we’ll make your boo boos all better.
Sam(antha Vimes):
Loved the link and the comment. Is horn polish hard to find these days?
Magis - Remember the term “Rational Discourse”. WHY AREYOU PERSONALIZING my every comment. I, at least, respect your view point, although obviously I don’t agree with it. I do not stoop to personal attacks.
I am relatively new to BLOGS, and came here to see what was going on in the feminist blogosphere. What did I find? Nothing very pretty.
BTW, I am retired after a very successful career, with the awards to prove it. I HAVE NEVER HAD AN EEO or SexHar complaint filed against me. In a long career with the thousands of decisions I have made I have found that it is sometimes better to apologize than explain.
Another point, I WAS high enough in my organization to FIRE the HR staffer who proved to be less than the professional needed in that job.
.
Smitty:
You’re the one who said you learned to apologize. Is it irrational to ask what you had to apologize for? Unless you decided you needed to apologize why did you do it? To wit:
Re: my own fear of SexHar, in my life I learned that the only solution to SexHar is to immediately apologize whenever you CAN determine that somene (male/female) may have been offended.
YOU personalized it, no? “…My experience,… …immediately apologize?…” Did someone call you out?
“…HR staffer who proved to be less than the professional needed in that job.” odd construction.
How about some stories of how these poor men (perhaps other than you) were victimized? How ’bout backing up anything you said. ‘Easier to apologize than explain?” Explain what?
Magis, just spent 45 minutes reponding then lost it doing some research for a cite, (said I was new to this Blogging). Nice answer too!
OK, here! “…HR staffer who proved to be less than the professional needed in that job.â€Â? odd construction.”
But, did you get the message? In my previous organization, with the attiitude and comments you have reflected on this cite, you would have been counselled, your evaluation written to document your unprofessional behavior, any further related actions documented, then a decision made as to your future value to the organization. That’s 3 strikes if you count them. Is that clear enough? Your professionalism needs some work.
It’s too late and your comments are not worth the energy anymore. There I’ve gotten personal.
I’m not trying to be professional with you Smitty. I don’t have a professional relationship with you. You made statements which you will not back up or explain. You offer no proofs for your assertions.
As for professionalism…let’s get back to you refusing to talk to women for fear of harassment. Oh so very professional.
Smitty, there are some commenters here trying to engage you instead of enrage you. As for Rational Discourse, remember, you, too, have to engage your opponents’ arguments on the merits - it does not suffice to point out that they’re not being polite.
As for why they’re not being polite - well, perhaps a community of historically-oppressed persons in a relative oasis of safety and acceptance is collectively disinclined to give deep and respectful contemplation to the arguments and person of those who stroll on in and parrot the arguments of the oppressing power structure.
As a side note, Malcom Gladwell’s “Blink” is an excellent book (if a little scattershot) that would probably be very helpful in understanding why commenters here immediately identified you the way that they did.
Why the identification persisted is, of course, another matter.
blitzgal:
of the cases that are actually reported and subsequently go to trial (so we’re already down to a very small percentage of all rapes here), less than one in five lead to convictions.
Of course, misogynists use that statistic as an argument for their side: more than 80 percent of people accused of rape are acquitted, which to them can mean only that four out of five rape accusations are false (ignoring such minutiae as the “reasonable doubt” standard that at least in theory leads jurors to vote to acquit even when they’re almost positive the guy is guilty).
So…Herschele
Visited your blog (other thread link). Very nice.
Looked up your nom de guerre.
You were very funny when you were alive. Very.