I have the solution to this stupid debate figured out.
Men can force abortions on women who don’t want them if they agree to have their testicles removed at the same time.
I think a law like that should probably create the legal ownership of someone else’s body that the men advocating forced abortions seem to want while also creating a situation where they’ll have to consider the implications of what that really means.
By the way, and I don’t know where else to cram it, but this post on how white people need to chill when it comes to the word “racist” is a classic. I’m stashing it here, because it’s simple, really.
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Think of it as if someone points out that you need to wipe your nose because you’ve got a big glob of snot hanging out. The thing to do is say “oh, excuse me,” wipe your nose, and move on. Insisting that everyone pat you on the back and reassure you that they realize you don’t always have snot hanging from your nose, before the conversation can be allowed to move forward, is not productive.
Fantastically put.
By the way, and I don’t know where else to cram it,
You’re a brave woman, handing the trollboys a straight line like that.
Someone just got pwnd, and her name is Amanda.
I would volunteer my testicles to make sure that Ann Coulter never spawns, and do so with a smile on my face and a song in my heart. It’s not like I’ve got any use for them, anyway.
(That is the deal, right — I get veto power over one woman’s reproductive lifetime in exchange for castration? Because if it’s a “one castration for one abortion” kinda dealy, then I would only be delaying the horror. Still good, but then we’d need to find more volunteers.)
It’s not a stupid debate. It’s a debate where a lot of people aren’t thinking straight, but that doesn’t mean it’s stupid, it just means it’s hard.
It’s not crazy to find it scary to think that someone else controls whether you become a parent or not. And that’s the situation a man is in when a woman is pregnant and he’s the prospective father. Now, when you reason it through, you realize–or you damn well should realize–that someone has to have the right to make the decision if the man and the woman can’t agree, and that someone has to be the person who is pregnant. And you also realize–or damn well should–that once the kid is born, a decent human being can’t back out being responsible for their child, so the putatively “equality-based” argument for letting the father disclaim responsibility is just wrong. But that does bring you back to the idea that another person has the right to decide whether you become a parent, and that’s a hard and scary place to be. Scared people don’t reason well.
In other news, screwing the wrong person can ruin your life, and family courts are no more perfect than any other human institution. Film at 11.
Should add: I don’t think “forced abortions” are what anyone is advocating. I think some of the “men are persecuted” types have come up with the idea of a “paper abortion” by which a man whose partner refuses to abort a pregnancy he doesn’t want can disclaim any interest in or responsibility for the child. It’s wrong, but it’s not forced abortion.
It’s also completely stupid. That baby, once born, has a right to parental support whether the parents like it or not.
It’s simple. Abortion is a surgery terminating a medically dangerous condition that a woman doesn’t want to have. She has a right to decide whether or not she’s pregnant or not, period. You think it’s scary that someone else has control over whether or not you’re a parent? Imagine someone else forcing you to donate your body to someone else’s life support against your will. Better analogy.
Amanda, I’m agreeing with you, dammit. I’m just suggesting that “here’s why you’re wrong” works a little better in this particularly case than “you’re an idiot.”
I am, however, an idiot who can’t spell “particular.”
Look, I don’t think you’re an idiot. But I get rapidly frustrated with the “What about MEN?!” thing. Few people are more sympathetic to the fact that men are biologically disempowered to a degree in this area, the fact that you can’t get pregnant on accident makes up for that in spades.
What I really, really, really don’t like is the way that so many men I’ve read on this think that telling a woman to have her insides scraped out at his request is no big deal. Abortion is painful as hell, from what I understand. It’s like me telling you that getting a steel toed to the gonads is something that should be up for “reasonable” discussion.
Granted, something painful is gonna happen either way if a woman gets pregnant and it’s the utter lack of care that really gets to me. The fear of this is so much for some female friends I’ve had that even using two kinds of birth control they can’t ever completely relax and totally enjoy sex. And when I hear men coldly discussing how much right they should have to tell women what to do with our bodies when they should be spending a little more time grateful that women let men inside our bodies at all, considering what a risk it is, well, I get a little pissed.
Not of course that women have sex with men as a favor or anything. Maybe some, but certainly not me. But I think it would do well for men to pause before they jump in and remember that women have the fear of huge amounts of pain in our reproductive organs hanging over our heads when we have sexual intercourse.
If you’re referring to my comments, they don’t have anything to do with “what about men?” other than “what’s the best way to get men to understand that once a pregnancy begins, the pregnant women has the final and absolute right to determine whether that pregnancy continues or not.” At times, you post as if the best way is to get pissed off at anyone who hasn’t yet thought the thing through properly. I thought the comments that started off the Feministe thread were more-or-less well-intentioned but wrong-headed, which is why I don’t think that’s the right approach in this particular case. I understand where you’re coming from–you’ve spent enough time thinking about these issues and heard enough of the bullshit to lost patience with it–but sometimes having the wrong answer really is just a matter of not having thought things through, not being a misogynist asshole.
Asking men to put them in someone’s shoes is the only way to get long term changes in thinking. The problem is too many men have too little empathy with women. Imagining what it’s like to have people debate “rationally” whether or not you should be free to turn your body over to others for their use and the blinding rage that can cause is a useful exercise, I’d think.
That’s my point. If we were sitting around “rationally” discussing whether or not women should be able to forcibly castrate men, I don’t think that men would be considered out of line to protest vigorously.
Just had a thought.
If the wingnuts tell me I have veto power over a woman’s uterus; i.e., You *can’t* have an abortion. Does that mean I also have the power to say you*must* have an abortion?
Boggles the mind, no?
May I suggest, very gently, that “let’s cut off your left nut, asshole” may not be the most productive way of asking men to put themselves in women’s shoes?
The reason I thought the Feministe thread was interesting was precisely because it is a good place to ask men to confront issues that women deal with all the time. A guy whose partner is unexpectedly pregnant is in a scary position, but by reflecting a bit on what he would feel like in that situation, he might be able to realize how much worse it would be to be a woman in a world in which women DIDN’T have the power to decide what happens at that point. Utopian, maybe.
Yes, but David, please understand the need for venting every now and then. We can’t constantly be productive and polite. Damn.
Agreed, absolutely. And when the same post triggers one person’s need to vent and another one’s interest in teasing out where people are coming from, conversation can get unnecessarily strained!
But I think it would do well for men to pause before they jump in and remember that women have the fear of huge amounts of pain in our reproductive organs hanging over our heads when we have sexual intercourse.
Must…resist…wildly…inappropriate…joke…
Auguste, just because Amanda’s got reproductive organs hanging over her head is no reason for you to get all fourth-grade about it.
I have to say I must be sheltered. I’ve never heard anyone complain that getting teabagged is painful. Clammy, sure.
Must…resist…wildly…inappropriate…joke..
Yeah…..but…..LOL
(how good is a joke if you don’t even have to tell it for it to be funny?)
c-minus: Great Idea. I’ll gladly put my nuts on the line to keep Michelle Malkin from spawning.
togolosh:
Without endorsing your comment, necessarily
you should know that you’re about two kids too late.
Amanda I can see why this seems like a stupid debate under the current situation in America. But I don’t think the idea of parents not having any parental rights or responsibilities until they choose to accept them is intrinsically stupid.
I don’t think it’d be workable in the US at the moment. But I actually don’t agree with this: “That baby, once born, has a right to parental support whether the parents like it or not. ” The baby has the right to support from society as whole, not just the people who happen to be its biological parents.
I wrote a little more about why I think I have such a different perspective on my blog.
I have a suggestion for the alternate problem, when a man insists that a woman not get an abortion when she wants one: A man can insist that a woman continue a pregnancy if and only if he is willing to undergo all the same risks and inconveniences that she does. For example, if she gets morning sickness he gets injected with a little chemotherapy until he has the same amount of nausea. He keeps getting the same dose until her morning sickness clears up. When she goes into labor he gets kicked in the balls each time she has a contraction. If she dies, he dies. And so forth.
“Asking men to put them in someone’s shoes is the only way to get long term changes in thinking.”
Agreed, many men don’t have much empathy for women, but is the walk-a-mile-in-my-shoes argument the key thing that led us to Roe v. Wade? I feel like what has put the abortion debate back on the table is a sort of collective re-emphasis on religion, which in some eyes can’t be questioned.
Well I am Amanda linked to this, because she should consider it closely. Amanda, white grrl, is incredibly sexist to the point of being a misandrist.
Whenever anyone of any pov attempts to discuss her illogical rants she cusses them out and reflexively accuses them of being members of MRAs and being misogynists. And women themselves are not excluded. Amanda has the truth on the patriarchy, and any woman that begs to differ is basically told that she is an uncle tom.
Once upon a time, women’s liberation was about liberating women AND men. Now at Amanda’s site, women’s liberation is about gaining and keeping and leveraging power that women have gained over men, even when that leads to demonstrable injustices.
A common cry there is that it is ridiculous for any man to claim that they are discriminated against in any fashion, BECAUSE of course, they are men and members of the patriarchy.
Amanda’s new and improved Pandagon — basically a hate site towards men not much better than how LGF and Freepers discuss “islamofacism”.
Except the LGF folks routinely talk about hunting down and killing the people they don’t like. That’s a bit worse then calling somebody a fucking idiot or whatever.
It’s amazing to me how hard it is for some people to make the distinction between those two rhetorical techniques.
And jeez Flathead, suck it up. Calling somebody a misandrist sounds stupid because “misandry” weilds pretty much no power over you at all. The worst it’ll do is have some woman demand you pay to support your kid.
You aren’t getting paid less because of your misandrist boss. You aren’t going to be raped by a misandrist. “Misandry” is so non-existant as to be a completely laughable idea.
So stop saying it. It makes it sound like you think being called names on the internet is as bad as having to live with the risk that you’ll be forced to stay pregnant someday.
Chris,
“Misandry” is so non-existant as to be a completely laughable idea.
Sadly, the courts are filled with misandry. And while abortion is an important topic to discuss, Amanda discusses much more than that, and in very sexist ways. Namely child custody issues.
I am not referring to the part of her post where she discusses abortion, but to the portion where she discusses how not to go overboard when someone calls you a racist. This includes not going overboard when someone calls you a sexist. And Amanda is definitely a sexist. As Atrios said this morning, “consider the criticism”
Mr. Flathead:
May I make some suggestions for your Christmas list?
Sense of humor,
Sense of irony,
Sense of proportion
And to discuss abortion…. All of this takes a very grey issue and turns it into black and white.
It’s also completely stupid. That baby, once born, has a right to parental support whether the parents like it or not.
If by parental support you mean money, this doesn’t mean that parental support must have to come from the father.
It’s simple. Abortion is a surgery terminating a medically dangerous condition that a woman doesn’t want to have. She has a right to decide whether or not she’s pregnant or not, period.
Nothing is this simple. No rights are as absolute as this. By insisting on absolute rights in a world where nothing is absolute, by insisting you are right and it is simple, and by casting those that disagree with you out, and calling them names, you alienate people who would agree with you on many issues.
By insisting that it is this simple and that there aren’t other deep issues involved you turn off everyone but your fellow zealots.
Magis,
Yes, we could all use more of that. I lost my sense of humor and proportion and irony when my ex asked the court to move away. Under the Marriage of Burgess (since overturned) she was allowed to. When that happened my 49/51 coparenting turned into 25/75 and until I found a job in the new location I drove 1600 miles every two weeks to be with my children. Now moved into the new location, I have had to pay tens of thousands of dollars to turn that 25/75 back into 49/51.
Along the way I have won just about every battle in court, including the false allegations of sexual conduct, and I have had 3 court appointed psycholigists agree with me and 1 disagree but I watched my kids grow from 2 and 4 to 6 and 8, and I have had to pay 50% of my wages in support. I live in a 2 BR/apt and barely have enough money for clothes for the kids (and none for myself) or presents for birthdays. The $2500 I pay each month (finally reduced to the GUIDELINE payment of $1059 each month) has gone to house downpayments, house painting, and house renovation.
All of this is applauded by Amanda who cusses me out and tells me that that is how it should be. Of course, Amanda doesn’t know the actual particulars of the case and says this is how it should be.
And though I am not a member of an MRA, this is what MRAs are fighting for. No fault divorce should come with a presumption of joint custody of the children.
So yeah, I lost my sense of humor and proportion, and would love to find it again.
Thanks for your suggestions, I will look for them on our Channukah lists.
Link Lode
Friday, 9 Conclusion 2005 A few stops we made on our way around the internets of late. Fellow former OSPer…
Mr. Flathead:
I would appear that you were screwed by the Court and if that be the case you certainly weren’t the first man to do so. I will go so far as to say that men have traditionally been screwed by the Courts. You certainly are not the only man out there to be bitter about it.
Consider if you will the possibility on the sexist assumptions that women are little frilly things that can’t take care of themselves and that mother’s have some frickin’ nurturing gene that automatically makes them better suited to raising children. This has been the traditional and if I may be so bold patriarchical view of the court system. It is BS of course. You of all people should be a champion for sexual equality!
Now if you choose to look for justice on a feminist blog, so be it. But I don’t think it helps your case to call Amanda a “notorious racist” and shit like that. Women have had some advantages under the old paradigm but they had a lot of disadvantages too. Still, it only muddies the waters to turn every rape discussion into a discussion of men’s rights. It does not logically follow that one inequity correlates to another.
Happy Channukah.
You should be laughing because it’s actually kinda funny, if you find schaudenfraude funny, how the patriarchy screwed you over so hard and how you still don’t get it.
Slaves always revolt, the rich devour each other, and institutionalised misogyny always bites men who aren’t part of the privelaged classes back on the ass eventually.
Welcome to the patriarchy flathead.
notorious racist
I don’t believe I have called her that. I have called her a sexist pig.
You of all people should be a champion for sexual equality!
And I am, which is why I laugh when I hear Amanda call not only me names, but call other women who disagree with Amanda names, telling them that they are deluded.
This has been the traditional and if I may be so bold patriarchical view of the court system.
That is true. Women used to have their kids taken away from them almost everytime. That was a terrible, horrible, wrong thing for the courts and the attorneys and judges of those times to do.
I can understand what has happened to me in that historical context, and as a pendulum swing, but the correction for that is not to applaud the pendulum’s reverse swing, but to educate and inform the system so that we can find out where the pendulum would really point to if it wasn’t swinging back and forth.
patriarchy With the number of women lawyers, judges, psychologists involved in that system that I have dealt with, I see no reason to give it the sexist name “patriarchy”.
And without calling it patriarchy, your statement Mildred, falls apart very quickly.
You may mean “system”, but by calling it patriarchy and claiming I was somehow responsible for it, or benefited by it, you are just excusing your own sexist and power grabbing behaviors.
I do believe it is a “classist” system. And if by “institutionalised misogyny” you mean “institutionalised classism” then I would agree.
But misogyny is not classism and by calling classism, misogyny you injure people, alienate potential supporters, and injure your own cause.
Got to go get my kids some winter clothes.
Mr. Flathead:
In the piece on racism, you wrote:
“Ha Ha, Notorious Bigot Amanda Marcotte Blogging to End Racism!!!”
O.K. bigot not racist. It’s still, BS
hmm, actually I was out of line, I made the huge and baseless assumption that your ex utilised patriarchal gender roles to get preferential treatment in court, and that patriarchal urges to get married and have kids before you and your then wife were really ready and able to maintain a marriage and raise kids as part of that marriage were at fault.
I apologise completly.
(Is this site running slow today?)
Magis:
bigot
n
Definition: intolerant, prejudiced person
One who is strongly partial to one’s own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.
Seems to fit Amanda to a tee.
Mildred,
My ex was 30 when we had kids, I was 36. This was her second marriage, my first. We were both in graduate school, but I had gone back to school after working for 14 years (and saving). She had never had a permanent fulltime job before. I would say we were old enough and really ready and able to maintain a marriage and raise kids. We were married six years during which I worked fulltime the last four years while she finished her Ph.D and found a position.
…whatever happened to the wonderful option of adoption?
Or is there an extreme negative side to this that I’m not aware of…at all…hmm.
Feed me with information, my brain is empty at the moment. My apologies.
Pierpont, I’m done with you. This blog is for discussing the issues. Your forum is for whining about “Ameriskanks”. You’re banned. Now run back to your asshole club and whine about how Asian women would never ban you for being a pig.
Now, on the subject–Dave, my point is to cause that gut reaction at the very idea that someone else should have the right to force painful surgery on you against your will. There’s way too little empathy for pregnant women in this debate, to the point where I think people forget that pregnancy is a medication that is often unpleasant and always ends painfully.
Nowwhere in the comments at femininste is anyone arguing that a man should be able to control a woman’s reproductive rights. Some people raise the idea of a “paper abortion”; if a woman doesn’t want to have an abortion then somehow the man isn’t required to pay child support. Some suggested the government should do it. I argued there, like Amanda does here, that a child is entitled to have both parents support him and that of course, men don’t have a veto over the decision to have a child. It’s ONE situation where men can be screwed.
Obviously, this type of situation is going to be tough on everyone involved. To dismiss mens’ concerns about having a child against their wishes, and to turn that concern into a false charge that men are trying to control womens’ bodies, and then say we should cut their balls off, really doesn’t help. To suggest that considering the mens’ side of this is somehow ignoring women and encouraging the patriarchy is a bit shrill. Feministe does plenty to consider the feminist point of view and I like posts like the one linked to. It allows both men and women to consider abortion in practical terms. I like how it elicits stories about people’s real lives and real decisions–as opposed to a more philosophical and academic point of veiw; “it’s always the patriarchy!”
Amanda, I’d like to disagree with your statement that abortion “hurts like hell” or however you put it. Trust me, I’ve been there, and the worst of it was like hard menstrual cramps. Certainly nothing compared to the pain of labor–horrid, horrid pain. I also worked for a year in an abortion clinic, and pain was the least of the women’s problems. If a woman is complaining that her abortion hurt like hell she probably either had a botched abortion or doesn’t have anything to compare the relatively minor pain to.
Oh, and don’t let the “poor, poor pitiful me” guys get you down.
I am new to this site, and followed the link from KOS. My brother said he enjoys this site as well.
I read through the arguments by J Pierpont Flathead. Whereas he does make the argument with Amanda personal, she also slings it right back out in an equal fashion. However I note on other threads that anyone who openly disagrees with Amanda is greeted with a rude, insulting response, which would lead to a similar retort.
Correct me if I am wrong…
Was Mr. Flathead banned for disagreeing with you Amanda?
If so, how do you hope to be able to debate the controversial issues if you are just preaching to your choir?
He’s a longtime troll who has often gotten personal.
If a man doesn’t want to face the possibility of having a child and paying child support, he shouldn’t be having sex. Once the penis enters the vagina, he’s crossed the Rubicon–that is his choice. A woman’s choice lies ahead.
kactus- i wrote earlier that abortion can be really painful, because for me, it was. i went in with a friend when she got hers, and she felt a little cramping, had a couple tears, and was out in less than half an hour. i, however, used ru-486 at home, and was in the equivalent of labor for 4 hours, with cramps and contractions for over 12. i was still having small contractions 16 hours after i passed the fetus. the worst of it was nothing like cramps- i was having full-on contractions, and it hurt like hell. my friend, who’s had a homebirth, almost took me to the emergency room. i had a tooth die once while camping, and couldn’t lay down for 2 days- and the abortion was way worse. it was also really scary, because “it will feel like strong cramps” in no way prepared me for what happened. because i took standardized pills, my body had no bio-feedback controls- the hormones were much stronger than was necessary for me. i realize now that my experience was unusual, but abortion can be painful! i feel like i have to add the disclaimer, though: i’m glad i did it, and i’d do it again if i had to.
Trust me, I’ve been there, and the worst of it was like hard menstrual cramps. Certainly nothing compared to the pain of labor–horrid, horrid pain.
Yeah but you haven’t had your arm slowly knawed off by a blunt toothed shark - so who are you to talk of “horrid, horrid pain”? The point was that abortion is not fun, and not something women do just for the sheer unbridled joy of it. Yes pro-lifers do claim that, especially about a second abortion.
I would say we were old enough and really ready and able to maintain a marriage and raise kids.
Oh jesus amanda, I really wanted to find out how come they divorced and he got screwed over in the divorce courts if they were able to maintain a marriage…
To dismiss mens’ concerns about having a child against their wishes
you do realise how ludicrous what you said is, think about it, a woman is going to go through 9 months of pregnancy, hours apon hours of painful labor after which she’ll raise a kid for 18 years… just to get child support payments and/or get back at a man?
Any scam artist who is that dedicated earned that money fair and square in my books.
But of course, as MRA groups think that crazy people (the false rape accusers, the spermatozoic enslavers) are who the courts should specifically base sections of the law around why not go the whole hog? Guns/cars/pencils/being a politician should be outlawed because crazy people and people with malicious intent could use them for evil. If only a person had some legal right to have their corpus subjiciendumed…
Mildred:
“you do realise how ludicrous what you said is, think about it, a woman is going to go through 9 months of pregnancy, hours apon hours of painful labor after which she’ll raise a kid for 18 years… just to get child support payments and/or get back at a man?”
I think you misunderstand me. I don’t think any woman has a child to get child support payments, or welfare for that matter. The situation I had in mind is a woman who doesn’t want an abortion because she is against it on principle, or against it in personally.
I can imagine say, being a 21 year-old in college. A woman whom I dated for two months, and was broken up with, stated she was pregnant and going to have a baby. Think how hard it would be for everyone involved. I wouldn’t want the responsibility. Nor would I have been financially able to care for that child. But I think I would be willing to take care of that child. I would probably have to forgo graduating college. Or graduate school. I would also want to be in the child’s life. This is tough for the man as well as the woman. Plus, the emotional baggage. I would have a hard time with the fact that I loved this child but at one point never wanted him born.
Wow, T-bear. Way to assume the worst. No. I’ve tolerated him for a long, long time now and I just got tired of him turning every thread into a thread about how he hates me. He’s got his own forum to hate me at. I have a feeling you come from there, too.
Just now googled your name and found this on the Heretik. Zen calm. I think this means picking and choosing your battles.
A SECRET MESSAGE FOR AMANDA MARCOTTE
Heresy #33A
Avoiding the lock of useless
Battle is the Key to
VICTORY
The Heretik
Wow, you totally misread that. But thanks for playing.
My apologies then
Comment deleted for being harassing.
“Men can force abortions on women who don’t want them if they agree to have their testicles removed at the same time.”
Speaking as a guy, I totally agree with this - I only read partway through that post before my brain exploded with all the sophistry, but only one poster pointed out the initial question employed a false equivalency argument.
The “burden” of pregnancy on a man is not concrete but mallaeble and varies depending on societal factors. Biologically the burden of pregnancy is completely on the women and mothering is a stronger biological urge than fathering, if for no other reason than, y’know, making a human being inside of you. It is entirely just that a man gets less say, because he has less to do with the process. Just because we’ve evolved past the point where you might (and the word is *might*) have more financial responsibility than your biological role is no justification for claiming ownership of a womb. Money is transitory, biology is not and you are just the squirter, pal.
To all whiny male trolls:
Perhaps, buckos, you’ll think a little harder in the future before you donate sperm. So many people now refuse to take responsibility for any thing. “It feels good and I want it and I want it right now and I deserve it because I’m me.” And then when the piper comes to be paid…”Me??!! Damit woman, you’re ruining my life!!!”
Boys, think of it like this:
Suppose you make a donation without any precondition to, say, a church. Do you then get to bitch about what they did with it? Unless you put conditions on your bequest, no.
Unless you tell a woman before you have sex with her: “Honey, I’d like a roll in the hay but I’m to irresponsible to have a condom and if you get knocked up I’m going to South America. Still wanna screw?” If she still says yes, o.k. the more stupid her.
Gentleman: That is a people gun between your legs. Each ejaculation has the life potential of a small town. Before you stick it in you better have in the back of your mind unjust judges or whatever else might befall. And don’t you DARE post back and tell me “well she said she was on the pill.” It’s your sperm and YOU are responsible for any act they perform. YOU, YOU, YOU! So, if you wanna play and not pay, get a vascectomy or stay in your room and jerk off or play with your Real Doll or whatever.
P.S. ‘Real” men don’t whine. Ever.
Hm.
Man and woman have wild monkey sex.
Woman gets pregnant.
Man asks woman to have an abortion; woman refuses.
Man signs “paper abortion” refusing to support the child in any way.
Woman, deciding that while she prefers parenthood to not, decides single parenthood is not for her at this point in her life, and does have an abortion.
Man thiks “ha, I was right, she was only adfte my money all along” and joins bullshit “men’s rights” organization because he’s an asshole.
Man starts trolling feminist blogs.
…whatever happened to the wonderful option of adoption?
Or is there an extreme negative side to this that I’m not aware of…at all…hmm.
Well, my mother almost had gestational diabetes and her cousin nearly died in childbirth both times, but I can’t think of anything offhand.
None of them had abortions; all three children were wanted, at least so my mother tells me (and I believe her because she’s pro-choice). But you seem to be suffering from the common delusion that pregnancy has no real effect on the body of the pregnant women — as so often happens for anti-choicers, the pregnant woman disappears entirely.