Secondly, we ARE aware of the negative results for men. My response to that is 1) change the way gender is programmed in and it benefits men too and 2) this isn’t about men, it’s about women, and its a bit of a topic hijack to come in and say, essentially, ‘nevermind about the women, look at the poor men’.

Thirdly, I don’t ask anyone to pay for my dinner or drinks specifically because 1) I don’t want to reinforce that B.S. and 2) men tend to think you owe them something when they buy you dinner. And yet, when I politely say no, the hounding begins. Oh, I’m a coy flirt, saying no, just playing hard to get. Except I really mean no. But that doesn’t help. Then the harrassment starts. Then the anger. How DARE I refuse him. He’s just being NICE. Then it goes to my sexuality. I MUST be gay. Sometimes I get threatened, name-called, or my arm gets grabbed. Sometimes they curse at me, then walk off. And sometimes I have to get a bouncer to walk me to my car, because *I* have to leave to escape. Golly. We women have it so easy. If only we weren’t the gate-keepers of the nonnie, forcing poor men to badger us, and wheedle, and coerce, or simply steal the life-giving bajinga!

Men’s rights is sort of like… why don’t they teach Men’s Studies in college. They do. Its called ‘College.’ All civil rights are, by default, assigned primarily to men, then later granted to minority men, and then women. Which particular rights are men being stripped of by the feminist movement? You don’t have the right to get laid, or get your butt kissed, by random women of your choosing. You don’t have the right to knock your wife’s teeth down her throat when she burns dinner, or talks back. You don’t have the right to be a drunken ass who doesn’t support his family… well, actually, you do have the right to that last one, but you DON’T have the right to deny your wife from leaving. Or take her land. Or her money.

And regarding the oppresion of men, come on. While I can sympathize with you, that you don’t want to always be the first move maker and whatnot, y’know what they call women who make the first move? Sluts. They call us sluts, and they mock us, and they leave us. Hell, calling us a slut is the #1 defense to use when one of us gets violently raped. Can’t rape a slut. Change the social programming that says men are stones and women are broken when used, and all of these problems go away. One of the reasons a lot of psych types think men have higher suicide rates is because they’re programmed to not express emotion. Also, biologically, women have lower pain thresholds, but the ability to suffer greater pain then men (re: childbirth). But men are not taught to deal properly with emotional pain. Again, nullify the b.s. gender programming that says men are all grit and no femmy tendancies. Allowing men freedom from that crap allows men to be better husbands, better fathers, and better humans.

And how are men the defacto provider, when over half of all married couples BOTH work? And then wifee is also usually the primary caregiver for the children? How is the man the provider when the women is working two jobs? Men are oppressed? Why is female nudity totally acceptable in movies, but male nudity gets a higher rating and carries a massive taboo? Oh yeah, because men are the default, and pretty much everything is there to cater to, and tittilate, them.

Men’s Rights movements essentially complain about having to take out the trash AND wash the dishes. Why do I have to be the MAN here, AND be nice? Again, what rights are women stealing from men? The right to be successful? Nope. Almost ALL CEOs are male (with stay home wives). Almost all the wealthy-by-earning are male (with stay home wives). Ever heard the phrase, “Behind every successful man is a strong woman?” It means that behind every man who devotes himself to a career and makes a crapton of money and success, a woman has devoted her life to making sure lumpkins doesn’t have to worry his head about the kids, or dinner, or laundry, or the house, or the shopping… or anything inside the home. That’s a perfectly acceptable arrangement to me, a feminist, providing its what BOTH partners want for their lives, and the wife gets the respect SHE deserves for contributing to her husband’s success. Because he would not have been able to accomplish such greatness without her support and hard work at home. And again a double-standard. The woman gets criticized for staying home. Because children require no effort, right? We get called gold-diggers. I submit that without our support in the home, there’d be little gold to dig.

Teach him to water them twice a day and put them in direct sunlight.

What real man would belong to one? If there is one thing good about ‘real men’ is that they don’t whine. Male support group? Hokay, let’s get together for the big game and have a couple suds. At halftime maybe we can do ’sensitivity exercises.’ Yeeech.

For life of me I can’t imagine getting together with a bunch of metrosexuals to go to the woods to beat drums or whatever it is they do. Guys, you look like geeky weenies when you do that stuff.

It is certainly true that the modern media almost exclusively portrays males as boorish slobs without any feelings. But who actually watches tthat crap anyway? If you are, why? If you are and it’s making you insecure why don’t you ravish your lady or fix something for her (or one of a million other guy things)? Worried about your son having a good self-image? Be a man around him and he’ll be just fine. Teach him to honor and love women. Teach him to support and listen to them. Teach him to protect them if they want it and leave them alone if they don’t. Teach him that women need him to be a haven for them in times of need and not a wall between them and the world. Teach him that girls are pretty good people.

As for all the “man-bashing,” it’s just a stage society is going through. This too shall pass. Good women who love men hate these unfair stereotypes as badly as you do. So shut up, stop whining, and get on with the business of being a man, father, lover, brother, etc. You know what needs to be done so just do it and be a ’strong silent type’ like you’re supposed to be.

Let’s talk about sttrong women. Maybe it’s because I’m from the West or something where we have real cowboys (cowpersons?) and real blue collar folks. We don’t seem to to have much trouble figuring out what’s a ‘man thing’ and what’s a ‘woman thing’ and what are ’shared things’ (most everything). Strong women are a western tradition and a good one.

Speaking as a man, I loathe whiny, self-depreciating, faux-weak, apparently brainless women. It’s not cute, girls. Not to me its not. Tigers are supposed to mate with tigers and mice with mice. Men, if that’s the kind of woman you like, see a shrink about your own gender consciousness (or security or whatever). My lady is a tigress and I love her for it. Wouldn’t have it any other way.

Just because we finally let women be real women doesn’t mean we have to stop being real men. Kinda nice that way I think and, all in all, a pretty positive thing.

By the way, Amanda the Magnificent, the pictures were a hoot. I hope you don’t mind that one part of me drooled over them a tad while still getting the joke. A ‘guy thing’ you know (or was that another thread, pardon the senility).

Until boys and girls are 9 their suicide rates are identical
from 10 to 14, the boys’ rate is twice as high as the girls’
from 15 to 19, four times as high
from 20 to 24, six times as high

Source; U. S. Bureau of Health and Human Services

“MEN’S rights men focus on the costs and destructiveness to men of masculine roles. They dispute the feminist idea that men (or some men) gain power and privilege in society, claiming that both women and men are equally oppressed or limited or even that men are oppressed by women. Men are “success objects” (like women are “sex objects”) and burdened as providers, violence against men (through war, work and by women) is endemic and socially tolerated, and men are discriminated against in divorce and child custody proceedings. As far as “men’s rights” are concerned, these men believe that men’s right to a fair trial in domestic violence cases, to a fair negotiation in custody settlements, and to fair treatment in the media have all been lost.
The men in men’s rights groups are typically in their forties and fifties, often divorced or separated, and nearly always heterosexual. In both general men’s rights groups and fathers’ rights groups, participants often are very angry, bitter and hurting (with good reason, they would say), and they often have gone through deeply painful marriage breakups and custody battles.

For some men’s rights men, feminism has largely achieved its goals and women have more choices, while men are still stuck in traditional masculine roles. For some, feminism was once a ‘human liberation’ movement that now only looks after women. For others, it never tried to liberate men, it has even tried to keep men in their traditional roles (eg as providers), and “feminazis” are involved in a conspiracy to discriminate against men and cover up violence against them.”

About Valerie Solanas, yeah she was “crazy”… now you just explain to me why did Robin Morgan (a famous feminist) call her a “champion of women’s rights”, why did she demonstrate for her release from prison, and why did Robin Morgan become the editor of Ms. Magazine (a famous feminist magazine).

Angst, meanwhile, is a requirement for Men’s Rights Activists, of whom Amanda at Pandagon has meticulously researched. If you aren’t familiar with the Men’s Right’s Movement, visit some of the websites she has provided. Then read some of the comments…

There’s an interesting discussion going on here at Pandagon. It contains the usual misinterpretation of the meaning of equality – that somehow actual equality equals some sort of "patriarchal" dominance. Along with this is the usual

Few if any hippies repeated the sayings and rantings of Manson, while the hate-speech of Solanas was filtered through many feminist organizations and emerged as social policy.

Whilst disavowing any agreement with her unstable rantings on one hand, and enacting policy based upon it on the other, they were able to use her ideas without accountability.

Lack of female accountability…that sounds familiar…Jennifer Wilbanks, anyone?

I recall several heated ‘conversations’ with Feminists in 1983-1987 where women I was arguing with repeated Solanas’ writings verbatim as both conclusion and proof of their points.

Amanda Marcotte has a two-part essay about what she calls the anti-feminist/men’s rights movement. In part 1 she gives an overview of the players she sees in the MRA, and in part 2 she discusses some of the MRA arguments that she’s encountered. The pos…